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Our Wonderful God | |||||||
Does the Trinity Deny the Personhood of Christ? Is God the Father the ONLY TRUE GOD?" But What About John 17:3 Is the Trinity Belief a Pagan Belief? Is the Trinity Concept in the Old Testament? If God said, "Let Us make man in OUR image" did he make a UNITY man?"
Objection #1 This is usually the first objection we meet; the reference that just because we believe in the ONENESS of the Godhead, that we therefore deny that there are three Persons in the Godhead, however, our very statement of belief shows that this is not true. Our understanding of the Trinity does not say CHRIST and GOD are the same persons. The understanding of the Trinity says there are THREE PERSONS unified as ONE GOD, of one substance, co-equal, and co-eternal, working together in perfect harmony. While God the Father, and God the Son, are one in purpose, unified in motives, knowing each others thoughts, (for there is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons,) this does not render them devoid of personhood. It is the truth of the TRINITY that can uphold the Biblical concepts which shows Christ is Divine and fully God, and the Father is Divine and fully God, yet we are serving and worshipping ONE GOD.
The understanding of the Trinity does not say CHRIST and GOD are the same persons. The understanding of the Trinity says there are THREE eternal PERSONS completely unified as ONE GOD, working together in perfect harmony. While God the Father and God the Son are one in purpose, of one mind, one in infinity, nature and character, yet in personality they are two. The Father and the Son each have a personality. Christ declared, "I and my Father are one." Yet it was the Son of God who came to the world in human form. Laying aside his royal robe and kingly crown, he clothed his divinity with humanity, that humanity through his infinite sacrifice might become partakers of the divine nature, and escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. The Trinity doctrine recognizes the Holy Spirit as a PERSON. Even though the Greek word for "SPIRIT" is a "neuter" gender, (IT) Jesus used the masculine pronouns (HE, HIS) to replace the neuter form when promising to send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13) even though syntactical that was inconsistant grammer. Also the HOLY SPIRIT is endowed with very "personal" characteristics like: intellignece and knowledge (John 14:26) 1 Cor. 12:11, emothions (Eph. 4:30) judgment (Acts 5:3) can be sinned against (Matt. 1:31, Mark 3:29) He speaks (Acts 8:29) teaches (Luke 12:12) reveals (Luke 2:26) testifies (Acts 20:23) searches (1 Cor. 2:10,11) sends (Acts 13:2) guides (Acts 8:29) declares things to come (John 16:13) (See Handbook of SDA Theology, page 134) Ellen White (whose writings most Seventh-day Adventists value) writes: DA.669.002 The Holy Spirit is Christ's representative, but divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally. Therefore it was for their interest that He should go to the Father, and send the Spirit to be His successor on earth. There is ONE God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, when one of them speaks, it is in perfect accord with the Fullness of the Godhead. For each possesses the Fullness of the Godhead. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily BT.1906-03-01 (Also in Ev. 614-615) The Father can not be described by the things of earth. The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The word of God declares Him to be "the express image of His person." "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Here is shown the personality of the Father. The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio. In the name of these three powers,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.
Objection #2 Yes, there IS ONLY ONE GOD, AND HIM ALONE, WE ARE TO SERVE. To say God the Father ALONE is God, but Christ is also God, is tritheism, or bitheism-- a belief that there is more than one God to be worshipped. The doctrine of the Trinity maintains there is ONE GODHEAD, one in substance, purpose, equality, eternity, yet three PERSONS. To prove that God the Father is the ONLY GOD, they quote 1 Corinthians 8:6. Let's take a look at this text: Even if there are other so called divinities, this text says, yet for us there is only ONE DIVINTY--ONE DEITY This Divinity or Deity, consists of the Father, of whom are all things And of Jesus Christ, who is given the title of one “KURIOS” (which means ONE God, supreme in authority) So if there is BUT ONE DIVINITY-- it follows that both Christ and God the Father are of that ONE DIVINITY. To Deny that is denying the divinity of Christ. __________________ The term given to Christ in that verse is ONE LORD--or “KURIOS” this term is used repeatedly in the NEW TESTAMENT to refer not only to Christ, but also God the Father. If Christ is the "ONE KURIOS" as it says in 1 Cor. who is Jesus speaking of when He says: And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
If there is ONLY ONE “KURIOS” and that is Christ, as is stated in 1 Cor. 8:6,
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Again, 1 Corinthians says that CHRIST is the ONE KURIOS, --- but if you insist that Christ is NOT "THEOS" then which ONE of the two are you ONLY TO SERVE? Also, WHO is Thomas speaking of:
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Thomas called Christ “MY KURIOS” and my "THEOS" (MY DIETY!) I could site dozens more texts where the words “THEOS” and “KURIOS” are applied to both God the Father and Christ Jesus.SO if 1 Corthinians 8:6 is a good starting point-- I see it only as confirming my belief-- There is ONE GOD--- only ONE TRUE DIVINITY-- consisting of God the Father and Christ Jesus. It's interesting to compare the structure of 1 Corinthians 8:6 with this verse in Isaiah: Again we see there is ONE GOD. There is no other God but Jehovah, yet this is defined with the plural term. Then it mentions the just God, and the Saviour, and sums it all up as God, singular. Who is the Saviour?
the gospel according to the power of God; ….. is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
Objection #3 Continued But John 17:3 says the FATHER is the Only True God The MAIN TEXT the anti- trinitarians use is: John 17:3 Thus they say-- THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD-- and Christ is not that true God, but only a divine Being sent by the true God. However, John 17:3 doesn't say that Jesus is not the only true God. That conclusion is build on reasoning restricted by human limitation . It's based on this rationalization-- --since the Father and Jesus are two persons, and this verse says the Father is the "only true God", their deductive reasoning would exclude Jesus as being the "only true God". But that is faulty reasoning and simply insisting that ONE GOD could not possibly be comprised of three persons who are ONE in purpose, plans, motives, ideals and even share each others thoughts as if they were their own. Now let's explore this idea furth that attempts to restrict the infinite God to human limitations and declare that this verse "prooves" that God the Father ALONE is truely God. If you ask a child, "If Jesus is a god, but is not the True God, what kind of God is Jesus? With no other knowledge about Christ, the child would always say, "Jesus must be a false god". If John 17:3 merely read, the "only God" (as opposed to "only true God"), it would be bad enough for the anti-trinitarian. But the way John 17:3 is worded forces the anti-trinitarian to reject the Godhood of Christ or declare Him a false God. "ONLY TRUE GOD", they admit Jesus is still called God in scripture. How can this be, how can it say here that the FATHER is the ONLY GOD, and yet they agree Christ is also called God, in the scriptures. If, according to their isolation theory, the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE GOD yet Christ is God, but NOT "TRUE" God, where does that leave Christ?
This forces the anti-trinitarians to admit that John 17:3 somehow has to allow Jesus to be "TRUE god" while somehow still denying he is the "true GOD". But placing the exclusive meaning on the phrase that the Father is the "only true God" forces the meaning that Jesus is NEITHER "true" nor "God" in any sense. In the end the way they want to read the verse is that Jesus is neither
The Bible says, That kind of interpretation of scripture is like having two doors, and being told you must enter ONLY the ONE, but you must also enter the other if you want life. (They spin in circles) They actually argue that while Jesus is not "true God" yet they will admit that Jesus is "true" and "god" thus turning him into a secondary "true demi-god". In fact they will even call Jesus God, but never True God or Almighty God… as if any of these terms mean anything different.
They may then simply say, Christ is NOT God, just the Son of God, acting the role of God, for God.
Objection #3
I’m sorry but the truth is the opposite,
Every single instance where someone has tried to point out a pagan “trinity” I’ve found there were a host of pagan gods and goddesses, not just three, and NO CONCEPT OF UNITY or ONENESS at all-- anti-trinitarians just choose whichever three fit their STORY, to make it SEEM like that’s what pagans believed The pagan gods were NOT ONE in three persons, they were rival gods fighting and making love and doing all kinds of strange things. Indeed the understanding of the Trinity came in direct OPPOSITION to the pagan concepts. FOR we serve ONLY ONE GOD-- yet we know that Christ is God, and Christ and the Father are ONE. “I and my Father are ONE”.
IF THE TRINTY IS PAGAN -- and is the same thing as tritheism (which it is not, but many of these quotes pretend it is) then there remains only ONE OPTION -- YOU MUST DENY THE GODHOOD OF CHRIST---
There is no way you can say Christ and God are not ONE-- and still maintain that Christ is God, and is to be worshipped, without adopting the pagan concepts of multiple gods.
What the anti-Trinitarians are accusing us of , IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE GUILTY OF, by denying the Oneness of God and Christ in the Godhead (which is the very truth of the TRINTY) yet still they say they are worshipping both. THEY ARE THE GUILTY ONES-- of trying to introduce PAGAN CONCEPTS of gods, many giving birth etc. etc. etc.
If Christ is not the ONLY TRUE GOD, you have no scriptural authority to worship HIM.
For scripture both in the NEW AND OLD TESTAMENT says there is ONLY ONE GOD-- I've read some pagan concepts and they fit much more to the "anti-trinitarian" position, then to our understanding of the trinity.
In Egypt they had "Ra"-- the supreme sun god, who bestows power on the goddess Isis (who kind of tricks him into giving her this power.) She bears a son named Horace, who is the sky god, symbol of life and the avenger of justice. She raises her god husband Osirus back to life, who had been killed by another god.
That's the pagan concept of gods. A collection of gods ---sons, husbands, wives, but NO UNITY OR ONENESS-- no concept of ONE GOD. That is what I see in this attempt to destroy OUR understanding of the Trinity.
The Trinity is PERFECT UNITY--not a collection of gods.
If you throw out all truth because the pagans had their counterfiets, you must also throw out the special birth of Christ, your version as well as the TRUE (in Bethlehem--the true) (for Semiranmis, queen of Babylon, after her husband Nimrod's death, was found to be with child. It was declared that this child was the product of divine conception. Nimrod, who was now supposedly the sun god was the father via a special ray of the sun. Semiramis named her son Damu which later Babylonian language became Dammuzi. In the Bible it is rendered "Tammuz". Of course any son with such a claim to his conception was deified. Semiramis also deified herself as the mother of god (since only a god can beget a god) and installed herself as "The Queen of Heaven" pictured in the constellation Cassiopeia.
Yes, Satan set up his counterfeits--
But just because there are counterfeits and wrong philosophies that imitate the truth, does that mean truth is pagan?
Christ was BORN by special conception--in Bethlehem-- born of virgin and called EmmanuEL-- meaning GOD WITH US. We know that is scriptural.
Just because a pagan belief of a child born was around-- are you going to deny Christ's special birth and call it pagan? Yet this concept that God gave birth to ORIGINATE ANOTHER GOD-- that is totally pagan--
So how can you call OUR belief that Christ and God existed as ONE GOD, Two persons yet in perfect UNITY of the same substance, character and purposes from all eternity, as pagan?
There was definately NO unity between mother and son in the pagan story-- in some legends I've read that Tammuz killed his mother in his bid for power--- gods were constantly waring against each other.
That is pagan-- the total DISUNITY of a collection of gods .
God and Christ are ONE, of the same SUBSTANCE, same character, same purposes, co-equal, co-eternal-- in the ultimate close relation of a Oneness we don't even understand. Yet two distinct persons.
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Objection #4
Christ is the God Who reveals Himself in the Old Testament--- he is as surely GOD MANIFESTED in the OT as in the NEW. God the Father sends forth Christ--
Who is our Savior?
You said Christ is our Savior.
Yet look at all those texts in the OT saying God is our Savior--
Who is our Redeemer?
Christ is the ONE who “bought us back”
Yet look at all those texts in the OT saying God is the Redeemer--
JEHOVAH is the NAME of GOD--
Yet repeatedly that name is used to describe Christ as well as the Father in the Old Testament.
Indeed-- Christ said the old testament was a testimony of HIM --- THE SCRIPTURES TESTIFY OF HIM--- John 5:39
This text is actually a sad lament of Christ as He talks to the "keepers of the scriptures" who fail to recognize Him in those scriptures.
1 Cor. 3.15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
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“Echad” has a dual meaning, primarily the meaning of the ordinal number “one”, and also the meaning of “unity”.
“Elohim” which is the most common word used for God in the OT, according to what I’ve read, is the plural form, it sometimes has a singular verb, but that could be to stress the unity of oneness . I have studied it’s usage in the OT and find it refers to our Creator, Savior, Redeemer-- and so many concepts that refer to Christ as well as to God the Father.
Now consider other verses --
Gen. 1:26 And God (Elohim) said “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord (Jehovah) God (Elohim) said, Behold the man has become like ONE OF US, knowing good and evil
We see the same in Genesis 19:24 In the preceding chapter Abraham had received three heavenly visitors-- one of them was the LORD (Jehovah) who came to tell Abraham about the soon coming destruction of Sodom. . (We know this to be Christ, the son of God--see PP)
"Then "Jehovah" rained fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the "Jehovah" in heaven.
The passage strongly implies at least two individuals-- The ONE on earth who talked to Abraham, and ONE in heaven and both are called “Jehovah”.
The same occurs in Hosea where "Jehovah says He will save them by the Lord God (Jehovah the Elohim) Who is the Saviour-- Christ is our Savior but both God the Father and Christ are Jehovah the Elohim.
Hosea 1:7 "The word of (the Lord) "Jehovah"...I will have mercy on the house of Judah, I will save them by the ( Lord the God) "Jehovah" the "Elohim."
Isaiah 6:8 God asks “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us”
Also Scripture plainly tells us that more than ONE was present at creation--
Elohim is not just a "plural" of "majesty-- the ONE ELOHIM is the Unified GODHEAD.
John 1:2,3 states that the Word was in the beginning with God, all things were made through Him and without him was not anything made
Colossians 1:16 says Christ created.
The singular concept of a united plurality is totally Biblical ---
Look at Christ’s commission--
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The arguments on “EL” and “Elohim” as singular and plural only intensives the concept of
ONE GOD IN THREE PERSONS.---
Yes, only ONE person spoke to Abraham, but that ONE person represented the full Godhead.
That is the full concept of the TRINITY-- they do NOT work independent of one another. They have a unity, that if one speaks it is in full agreement with the full Godhead.
Does "Gen. 1:26 And God (Elohim) said “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, indicate that God is a Plurality of Persons?
No one will contend that God, Who created man in His own image, created man to be a unity of three persons? Are you a "unity" of three persons, or are you one single person?
"Gen. 1:26 And God (Elohim) said “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
So when ELOHIM says “Let US make man in OUR image” there is no question the term is PLURAL. A plural ONENESS. The Bible says that, GOD CREATED AND SAID LET US MAKE…. God to the Son says; "You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth" (Heb. 1:10 ) in the beginning they created the world TOGETHER AS ONE GOD JEHOVAH.
If I say to my husband-- Let US go to town. WE BOTH GO TO TOWN.
I think the Bible clarifies that-- God the Father and God the Son Created together.
Eph. 3:9
Col. 1.16 (says the Son created ALL things)
However, there IS a UNITY set forth in the creation account which serves as an example of the unity of God. Genesis 2 describes that God took "substance" from Adam and made Eve, -- they were of ONE substance, "bone of my bone" "flesh of my flesh" "therefore a man shall leave father and mother and be joined to his wife and they shall become ONE.
The same word "ONE" as used in:
It was an example of "ONENESS". Now humans can never be the same in oneness and purpose and motivations as GOD, however there is a an allegory to teach us something about God, involved this.
The allegory breaks down in these points,
However Adam DID not create Eve, nor did he give birth, yet they were from the same substance.
2. Adam and Eve had a beginning, God did not.
Neither God THE FATHER, nor THE LORD Jesus, had a beginning, they are of ONE SUBSTANCE from eternity.
3. The one substance did not automatically make Adam and Eve ONE-- for the Bible says they were to BECOME ONE.
But God is ALREADY ONE from all eternity.
Christ is said to "be in the bosom of the Father". Symbolizing the closeness of the Godhead, a closeness that exceeds human understanding, for it is unity in purpose and motives and character, and thinking.
We can rewrite Gen 1:26 this way:
That human beings are created in the image of God is a strong argument that God is a unity of PERSONS!
Just look at this text from Malachi:
THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD!
Jehovah is used for GOD THE FATHER and for GOD the SON. For they are THE ONE GOD.
Here's just a sample:
Isaiah 63.16
Isaiah 64.8
Isaiah 43.3
Isaiah 43.11
Our God is ONE GOD!
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