DAY/YEAR PRINCIPLE DEBATE

From A-Tomorrow Forum

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Ron: Sunday , December 29, 2002 - 12:26 am:
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Clifford wrote in the Tom Speaks thread:
Ron--

I'm not going to get into a debate with you here on this. Read the book and then if you can debunk it, go ahead. I could respect those who have made an attempt to deal with it, even if I disagree with their response, than I could those like Cottrell and Ford who howl against the stuff but don't have the guts to flesh it out. Read the book and if you feel the arguments are wrong, show why. And, as I said, even if I would disagree (and who knows, maybe you can debunk them) I would respect your attempt anyway. I would be fascinated to see how people would refute what Shea did in that section. To me, at this point, the day-year principle is axiomatic. I see it all through the Hebrew Bible, more and more but that's not the point. The point, to reiterate, is that critics like Ford and Cottrell love to wail against the day/year principle and yet for some strange reason they refuse to tackle head on the church's best apologetic for it. Hmmmm . . .wonder why? I think I know why but there's no sense lowering myself to the level of one very prolific writer on here (whom I won't mention by name) who likes to get ad hominum.

Let's see now who is afraid to tackle an issue head on? You refuse to post on the IJ, and now you refuse to post simple arguments from Shea's book on the year day principle. It is doubtful that your life is more busy then most of the people on this forum, except maybe the few retired folk. Yet we find time to discuss issues and exchange views. With only a few exceptions we don't just repeat the same things over and over again. (If the shoe fits, wear it).

Is it any wonder people like Tom get so upset with the people at the GC. Is it any wonder that Cottrell calls some of them obscurantists.

Remember no one asked you to debate the year day just post some of the arguments for it. Even the book SDA's Believe just states its acceptance of the year day and then footnotes to see Shea's book. Something so important as that to the whole eschatology of the SDA church and that is all the coverage it gets. There were hundreds of previously believed timetables based upon the year day principle. All have failed and the adherents have abandoned the concept. Leaving the SDA church alone, and apparently afraid to even express why she believes as she does.

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Ulrike Sunday Dec. 29, 2002
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POSTED SHEA’S #1,#2,#3,#19,#20,points

The following is an excerpt taken from the
Daniel and Revelation Committee Series Vol. 1
Selected Studies on Prophetic Interpretation
by William Shea

#1 Philosophy of History

The preterist view of apocalyptic prophecies and their time elements essentially leaves the whole Christian era, with the exception of a very small initial fraction, without any direct historical or prophetic evaluation by God upon the course of that history.

Such a perspective stands in marked contrast to the OT view of history in which the mighty acts of God on behalf o His people are recited through biblical history from Abraham to Ezra. Old Testament history involves both a recitation of those events and prophetic evaluations of their character. The same approach to the history of the Christian era is found prospectively in the apocalyptic books of Daniel and Revelation when they are interpreted along historicist lines, but not when they are interpreted along preterist lines.

The futurist interpretation of apocalyptic poses a similar problem. It also leaves most of the history of the Christian era unaddressed by God except in general spiritual terms. After this lengthy historical and prophetic vacuum, futurists then see the prophetic voice again taking up a concern for the last seven years of earth's history.

From the viewpoint of the "continuous" historical school of prophetic interpretation, the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation provide a divinely inspired, descriptive overview and evaluation of some of the most theologically significant events of this era. The Christian era is seen to stand in continuity with the historical description and prophetic evaluation of events in the OT era. The same God has been active in a similar way in both of these dispensations.

This larger view of God's more comprehensive interaction with human history carries with it the corollary that the statements about time found in these prophecies cover a more extensive sweep of history than can be accounted for on a purely literal basis." p. 56

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#2. Theology of Prophetic Time Periods

A dozen time prophecies occur in the historical narratives and classical prophets of the OT. More than a dozen also appear in Daniel and Revelation. The volume of material implies that this kind of prophetic view was important to the God who revealed these prophecies.

In order to determine what is particularly significant about time prophecies, it may be noted, generally speaking, that what happens during these periods can be evaluated as adverse, or bad, from the human point of view. At their end a more favourable turn of events occurs. Thus these time prophecies appear to delimit periods during which adverse circumstances, or evils, are permitted by God to prevail.

Examples of this kind of activity in the historical narratives and classical prophets of the OT can be found in the cases of the 120 years to which man's wickedness was limited before the Flood (Gen. 6:3), the 400 years prophesied for the oppression of Abraham's descendants in Egypt (Gen 15:13), the seven years of drought and famine prophesied through Joseph, the three and a half years of drought and famine prophesied through Elijah (1 Kings 17:1), and the 70 years of exile for God's people prophesied by Jeremiah (Jer. 25:11)

In apocalyptic prophecies we find the 3 1/2 time--42 months--1260 days-- for the persecution of God's people referred to twice in Daniel (7:25; 12:7) and five times in Revelation (11:2,3; 12:6,14: 13:5) Another period of persecution lasting 10 days is referred to in Revelation 2:10. Men were to be hurt for five months under Revelation's fifth trumpet (9:5), and men were to be killed for a longer period of time under its sixth trumpet (9:15). God's witnesses were to lie dead in the streets for three and a half days before their resurrection (Rev. 11:9), and the abomination of desolation was allowed to hold sway for 1290 days (Dan. 12:11). Again, at the conclusion of each of these time periods these adverse conditions for the people of God were to be reversed.

To recall these examples is not to say that ALL time prophecies refer to something bad or adverse as occurring with the epochs they delimit. The seven years of plenty in the time prophecy given Pharaoh is an example of a period of prosperity (Gen. 41). While certain dire events were forecast as transpiring during the 70 weeks prophecy (Dan. 9: 24-27), yet some very positive accomplishments would also take place during that era.

Nevertheless, even in these two instance the good is linked with the less beneficial. The seven good years were preparation for the seven years of famine to follow. The negative response to the Messiah by the people was seen as resulting in terrible consequences for the nation. Thus when the whole spectrum of time prophecies are taken into consideration, it may be seen that in general they delimit periods of adverse conditions.

This pattern is similar to the larger pattern of the whole economy of sin through the history of the human race. That too will finally be delimited and concluded when God brings to an end human history as we now know it. Thus human history can be looked upon as a probationary period during which evil has been allowed to work its way; but God will soon intervene and bring that probationary period to a close.

In the same way, but on a smaller scale, these time prophecies appear to have delimited similar experiences at various points through the course of human history. The fact that God brought these temporary episodes of evil's ascendancy to their conclusions at prophetically appointed times is an earnest or taken of the fact that He will also bring the whole economy of sin to its conclusion at the appointed time (Act 17:31)

The literal time periods present in the prophecies of the historical narratives and the classical prophets were ample for the outworking of evil's purposes. This holds true for the 120 years until the Flood, the 400 years for oppressing the Israelites in Egypt, and the 70 years they were swept off their land during the Babylonian exile, etc.

If the time periods in apocalyptic are also interpreted as literal, however, the same principle of fairness in the great controversy would not appear to operate. The great sponsor of these evils could reasonably complain that he was not given sufficient time to demonstrated the superiority of his program if the 3 1/2 days, 10 days, 3 1/2 time-years, etc., in apocalyptic were only literal time units.

The best way to resolve this theological disparity between the significance of literal time in classical prophecy and interpreting time in apocalyptic as literal is to interpret the time units in the latter as symbolic rather than literal." p. 57-58

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#3, End-Point of Prophecies

The time periods that occur in the two types of prophecies discussed above contrast in general with regard to their length, if they are all interpreted as literal time. The time prophecies encountered in historical narratives and classical prophets of the OT run as long as 400 years (Gen. 15:13)
The other extreme is encountered in apocalyptic prophecies where one time prophecy extends for only three and a half days (Re. 11:9).

The longest of the time periods in apocalyptic extends for only 6 1/2 years when the 2300 evenings and mornings of Dan 8:14 are evaluated as literal time; and some commentators would (incorrectly) cut this period in half. Two of these contrasting long and short time prophecies occur in the same chapter of Dan 9. In this chapter Daniel's prayer for the fulfillment of Jeremiah's 70 years is answered with another prophecy about 70 weeks, or only a year and a half, if literal time is involved.

An important point to note here involves the END POINT IN VIEW in these two different kinds of time prophecy. In the prophecies found in historical narratives or classical prophets of the OT the time periods are connected generally with people who are either contemporaneous or immediately successive to the time of the prophet.

Apocalyptic prophecies, on the other hand, not only speak to the immediate historical context of the prophet, but also to more distant times--even down to the end of time when the ultimate kingdom of God will be set up. Thus a difference in focus--in terms of time-- is involved here. Classical prophecy concentrates on the short-range time view while apocalyptic includes the long-range view.

These differences pose a paradox. The time periods in classical prophecy which concentrates on the short-range view are longer than those occurring in apocalyptic which focus on the long-range view (that is, if the time elements in apocalyptic are interpreted as literal).

The most reasonable way to resolve the paradox and restore parallelism, and balance to this equation is to interpret the time periods in apocalyptic as symbolic (day for a year) thus standing for considerably longer periods of actual historical time.

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William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #19

All commentators on Daniel agree that the events prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27 could not have been completed within a literal 70 weeks or one year and five months. Since this prophetic time period stands symbolically for a longer period of actual historical time, it is important to decide just how the length of that longer period should be determined.

Crucial here is the word (sabua) which occurs six times in its singular and plural forms in these four verses. Since this word provides the basic periods of the prophecy, its translation plays an important part in the way in which the interpreter derives them.

Two main but significantly different approaches have been taken toward this matter. The first is to translate the word as “weeks” and to derive the prophecy’s time periods from the “days” which compose them. The calculation is done on the basis of the year-day principle. Thus each day of these “weeks” is viewed as a prophetic day standing for a historical year. This is the approach taken by the historicist school of thought.

The second approach is to translate this word as “sevens, besevened, heptads, hebdomads” or the like. From this purely numerical kind of translation it is then held that (sabua) carries with it directly implied “years,” that is, it is taken to mean “seven (of years)” literal and not symbolic time. In this manner the intervening step through which those “years” would have been derived from the “days” of the prophetic “weeks” has been avoided by the interpreter. This is the approach taken by the preterist and futurist schools of thought.

One reason for this approach in translation is to separate the 70 week prophecy of Dan 9 from the other time prophecies of the book and to place it in a distinct class by itself. The effect of this is to blunt the implications of the year-day principle advocated by the historicist system of interpretation.

If the year-day principle is thus denied its function in the interpretation of Dan 9:24-27, then preterists and futurists alike are at liberty to deny its application to the other time prophecies. On the other hand, if it is valid to apply the year-day principle to the “days” of the “weeks” in Dan 9, then it is logical to apply the same principle to the “days” in the time prophecies found elsewhere in Daniel as well as to the apocalyptic writings of Revelation.

Thus a prominent way in which the attempt has been made to parry the thrust of this logical conclusion has been to translate (sabua) as “sevens” instead of “weeks”. An examination of the way this word should be translated is of importance, therefore, in any discussion of the year-day principle of Daniel’s time prophecies.

The Hebrew word for “week,” (sabua) was derived from the word for “seven" (seba). However, it was drived as a specialized term to be applied only to the unit of time consisting of seven days, that is, the “week”. A different vocalization was utilized for this specialization. This difference is evident even in unpointed Hebrew texts (Hebrew consonants written without vowels) since the Hebrew letter (waw) was consistently written as the u-vowel letter in this particular word (cf Dan. 9:27).

This spelling is consistent in the Bible as well as in all six of the texts from Qumran in which this word has appeared. To give this word only a numerical value in Dan 9, therefore, confuses its etymological origin with its derived form and function.

The masculine plural ending on this word in Dan 9, in contrast to its feminine plural ending elsewhere in the OT, is of significance only in indcating that it is one of many Hebrew nouns with dual gender. (1)

The same phenomenon can be demonstrated for the occurrence of this word in Mishnaic Hebrew, Qumran Hebrew, Qumran Aramaic, and also later Syriac and Ethiopic texts. Furthermore, if the masculine plural in Dan 9:24 was intended to be understood numerically, the consonantal phrase of (sb'ym sb'ym) should be translated as “seventy seventies” not as “seventy sevens.”

The word (sabua) occurs 13 times in the OT outside of Dan 9. Virtually all versions fo the Bible are in agreement in translating these instances as “weeks.” If it is “weeks” everywhere else in the OT, then, on the basis of comparative linguistic evidence, it should be rendered “weeks” in Dan. 9.

Seven of these occurrences outside of Dan. 9 are connected with the “Feast of Weeks” or “Pentecost.” Clearly, this is the “Feast of Weeks” not the "Feast of Sevens.”

The same point can be made from Dan. 10:2-3 where the word occurs twice as a reference to a period of three “weeks,” during which Daniel mourned and fasted for the fate of his people. The word is modified in this passage by the qualifying word “days.” Because of this some have argued that the expression should be rendered as “weeks of days,” implying thereby that the prophecy of Dan. 9:24 should be understood to mean “weeks (of years)". But the argument misunderstands the Hebrew idiom present in this expression.

When a time unit such as a week, month, or year is followed by the word for “days” in the plural, the idiom is to be understood to signify “full” or “complete” units. Thus the expression “a full month” or “a whole month,” reads literally in the Hebrew, “month days,” or “month of days,” See Gen 29:14; Num 11:20-21; Judg. 19:2 (in this latter instance the word for “days” precedes the term for “month”) The expression , “full years,” reads literally, “years days.” See Gen 41:1; Lev. 25:29; 2 Sam. 13:23; 14:28.

Thus the Hebrew expression in Dan. 10:2-3 namely, “three weeks days,” means, according to this idiom, “three full weeks,” or “three whole weeks,” Linguistically this idiom prevents the conclusion from being drawn that “weeks of days” in contrast to “weeks (of years)” is implied in this passage.

It is quite arbitrary, therefore, to translate (sabua) as “seven” or “sevens” in Dan 9:24-27 and to translate it as “weeks” three verses later in Dan 10:2,3, as the New International Version renders it in the body of its text. Usages elsewhere in Daniel, elsewhere in the OT, in extra-biblical Hebrew, and in cognate Semitic languages all indicate that this word should be translated as “weeks”. No support can be obtained from any of these sources for translating this word any other way than as “weeks”.

A similar point can be made from the Greek of the Septuagint (commonly designated LXX, a translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek during the latter part of the intertestamental period before Christ).

The cardinal numeral “seven” occurs more than 300 time in the LXX and is consistently represented by (hepta) and its derived forms. (2)
The ordinal numeral “seventh” occurs some 110 times in the LXX and is consistently represented by (hebdomos) and its derived forms. (3)

In 17 of the 19 instance in which (sabua) occurs in the Hebrew OT, the LXX translates it with the feminine collective (hebdomas) and its derived forms. (The other two instances give no insight on the use of this term, inasmuch as the “two weeks” of Lev. 12:5 are rendered “twice seven days” and the Greek of Jer. 5:24 is rather remote from the Hebrew text.)

There is no overlap in the LXX usage between (hebdomas) for “weeks” on the one hand and (hebdomads and hepta) for “seventh” and “seven” on the other. If 11 references to (hebdomas) outside of Dan 9 should be translated as “weeks” instead of “sevens” then again, on the basis of comparative LXX usage, they should also be translated that way in Dan. 9.

From both Semitic sources and the LXX it may be concluded, therefore, that the best linguistic evidence currently available supports translating (sabua) as “weeks” in Dan 9:24-27. This word thus carries the year-day principle along with it in the 70 weeks prophecy. Furthermore, its application there may be reasonably extended to the other time prophecies of Daniel.

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# 20 WEEKS AND YEARS in DANIEL 9

Daniel’s prayer in ch 9 begins with an appeal to God for the return of His people to their land on the basis of the 70 years Jeremiah prophesied they would be exiled in Babylon (v. 2; cf Jer. 25:12; 29:10) In answer to his prayer, Gabriel assured Daniel they would return and rebuild the temple and captial city. In doing so, Gabriel also delimited another period of prophetic time: 70 weeks. During that period other events, beyond the previously mentioned ones, would take place (Dan. 9:24-27)

Since these events could not have been accomplished in 70 literal weeks, it is evident that this later time period was intended to be understood symbolically. The seven-day week provided the model upon which the symbolic units of that time period were based. Thus we find two prophetic time periods in this narrative of Dan 9--the 70 years at its beginning and the 70 weeks at its end; the one literal, the other symbolic. What is the relationship between these two time periods?

A relationship between them can be seen from the fact that both are prophetic in nature, and the latter is given in answer to the prayer about the former.

A relationship between them can also be suggested on the basis of their location in similar positions in the literary structure of the narrative. This structure may be outlined as A:B:C::A’:B’:C’, in which A and A’ represent the introductory vs. 1 and 20-23; B and B’ represent the 70 years and the 70 weeks; and C and C’ represent the rest of Daniel’s prayer and the rest of Gabriel’s prophecy respectively.

The fact that the prophecy of vs 24-27 begins with a time element (70 weeks) instead of ending with it ( as is more common in the other prophecies of Daniel 7:25; 8:14; 12:7,11-12) has the effect of juxtaposing the 70 week period with what precedes it; namely, Daniel’s prayer and the 70 year period he mentions as prompting his prayer.

Another way these two time periods are linked is through their common use of the number 70. This is no random selection of numbers. The latter has been directly modeled after the former. The latter time period (the 70 weeks) is symbolic.
The former (the 70 year period) is literal. When literal time unit is sought with which to interpret the symbolic “days” of the “weeks” therefore, the direct relations between these two time periods reasonably suggest that the “years” of the former may be selected to serve that function.

These two time prophecies are also related by the fact that both are multiples of seven. When the 70 weeks are multiplied by their individual units, they are found to contain seven times more symbolic units than the literal units of the 70 years (70 years: 490 day-years).

Furthermore, when the symbolic units of the 70 years are interpreted according to the literal units of the 70 years, a relationship is produced which parallels the relationship between the jubilee period and sabbatical year period (Lev. 25:1-19).
It may be recalled (cf #15) that the years of the jubilee were also measured off in terms of "weeks" in the legislation given about them in Lev. 25:8. The relaitonship between Lev. 25 and Dan 9 can be outlined as followers:

A SABBATICAL PERIOD

Lev. 25:1-7   = 7 years
Dan 9:2         = 7 years x 10 (70)

A JUBILEE PERIOD

Lev. 25:8-17   =  7 weeks of years x 7 (49)
Dan. 9:24        =   7 weeks of days x 7 x 10 (490)
(Apply Day/Year Principle)

Sabbatical year terminology was applied to Jeremiah’s 70-year prediction of Babylonian captivity by the chronicler: “to fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfil seventy years” (2 Chr. 26:21). Since the land rested every seventh year, it is evident that the inspired writer viewed the 70 years of captivity as the sum of ten sabbatical-year periods.

Inasmuch as the 70 year period (referred to by Daniel in vs. 2 just prior to his prayer) was understood to relate to the sabbatical-year legislation (Lev. 25:1-7) it may be expected that the 70 week period (at the close of his prayer) would be related to the jubilee period. This is the sequence in Lev. 25:1-17 (sabbatical year-jubilee). Thus the 70 weeks, or 490 years (on the year-day principle) may be seen as ten jubilee periods even as the 70 years were seen as ten sabbatical-year periods.

This relationship was already evident to the Essenes at Qumran in the first century B.C. When writers among them came to interpret Daniel’s 70 weeks, they more commonly referred to them as ten jubilees. But jubilees can only consist of years. It is evident, therefore, that they applied the year-day principle to this time prophecy even though all occurrences of the word (sabua) which have appeared in the Dead Sea Scrolls published thus far indicate that word ONLY MEANT “WEEKS” for them.

Supplementary support for these sabbatical year-jubilee relationships to Daniel’s 70 weeks can be found in the fact that they were fulfilled historically through events that occurred in post-exilic sabbatical years. The years 457 B.C. and A.D. 27 and 34 were sabbatical years. (4)

SUMMARY

Internally, the 70 years and the 70 weeks of Dan 9 relate t each other in five ways: (1) both are prophetic; (2) both are linked in a sequence of question and answer; (3) both are located in similar positions in the literary structure of the chapter; (4) both are specifically for the Jews; and (5) both use the #70 and its base of seven.

These relations are strengthened by the external parallels between the 70-year and the 70-week couplet in Dan 9 and the sabbatical year and jubilee couplet in Lev 26:

1. Numerical. Just as the 70-week or the 490-day-year period is sevenfold greater than the 70-year period (490:70) so is the jubilee period sevenfold greater than the sabbatical-year period (49:7)

2. Terminology. Sabbatical-year terminology is applied to the 70-year period (Lev. 25:1-7’ 2 Chr. 36:21; Dan 9:2). Since the land “enjoyed” a Sabbath every seven years, it is evident that the 70-year period of captivity contained ten sabbatical years. In like manner, jubilee terminology is linked to the 70 weeks, for a jubilee period was also measured in terms of “weeks” (seven weeks [Sabbaths] of years, or 49 years). The 70 weeks, or literally the 490 years, therefore, contained ten jubilees.

3. Qumran. Inasmuch as the Bible writer (2Chr 36:21) viewed the 70-year captivity as a period of ten sabbatical years in which the land kept Sabbath, so it may be inferred that the 70-weeks or 490-year period was to be viewed as a period of ten jubilees. Since the first century BC writers in Qumran interpreted the 70 weeks as ten jubilees, it is evident that they consciously employed the year-day principle. It is also evident that they saw a definite link between the time couplets of Dan. 9 and Lev. 25.

4 Chronology. The 70 weeks of Dan 9 are related also to the sabbatical years of Lev 25 through their fulfillment historically in the known post-exilic sabbatical years of 457 B.C., A.D. 27, and A.D. 34.

On the basis of these internal and external relationships, it is reasonable to interpret the 70-week period by the calibrations provided by the 70-year prophecy which opened the chapter of Dan 9 and by the jubilee period. It was linked to both, and both indicate that the period should be interpreted symbolically to represent literal years.


1
Diethelm Michel, Grundlegung einer Hebraischen Syntax 1 (Vluyn: Neukirchener Verlag, 1977): 34-39; Mordechai Ben-Asher, “The Gender of Nouns in Biblical Hebrew,” Semitics, 6(Pretoria, 1978):9

2
Edwin Hatch and Henry A. Redpath, A Concordance to the Septuagint, (Graz, Austria: Akademische Druk--U. Verlagsansalt), vol. 1, passim.

3
Pp. 361-62

4
Ben Zion Wacholder, “The Calendar of Sabbatical Cycles During the Second Temple and the Early Rabbinic Period,” Hebrew Union College Annual, 44 (1973): 153-96.

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Ron: Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 10:06 pm:
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Ulrike:
I don't think the problem is the word weeks, it is only when somone presumes that is means week of days. Which would be counter intuitive to the context. Since it begins with the seventy years of Jeremiah

So they already know it cannot be week of days since that would have long past.

Dan 9:1-3
1 In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom--
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.
3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.(NIV)
Now if you want to be consistent with the year/day theory Jeremiah's 70 years using the conventional 360 days in a year comes up to 25,200 days meaning with a day for a year 25,200 years that Jerusalem would be desolate.

Strongs says:
7620 shabuwa` (shaw-boo'-ah);
or shabua` (shaw-boo'-ah); also (feminine) shebu` ah (sheb-oo-aw'); properly, passive participle of 7650 as a denominative of 7651; literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):

KJV-- seven, week.

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Ulrike Unruh Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 11:22 pm:
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But Ron,
A "week" means 7 days, the word "week" does not mean seven years, unless one applies the day/year principle-- that was the whole point of the above post #19.

The word ‘shabua' means ‘a seven'. But go back and read Shea's study #19.

See: William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #19-20

It is correct to say the word (#7620 "Shabua") means "a seven".
It was derived from the word "seven" (seba). However, it was derived as a specialized term to be applied only to the unit of time consisting of seven days, that is, the “week”.

Therefore, every time the word "week" or "weeks" is used in the Old Testament, (that is referring to a literal 7 day week) the word "Shaboa" or "a seven" is the word used in the original. The word MEANS a week, or SEVEN DAYS.

"Thou shalt observe the Feast of WEEKS (a seven). Ex. 34:22
"Daniel was mourning three full WEEKS (three full sevens) Daniel 10:2

The very simple and obvious (though strangely highly fought against) truth is that Daniel 9 gives us the key to the day-year principle.

The word (sabua) means weeks-- that is seven days.
The Hebrew word for “week,” (sabua) was derived from the word for “seven” (seba).

Yet everyone knows the passage is talking about (a week of years)

Now there is no such thing as a week of years. A week is comprised of SEVEN DAYS. Thus the phrase (week of years) is purely symbolic language.

It is USING THE DAY_YEAR PRINCIPLE.

When the angel says "Seventy weeks are determined for your people"
the ONLY WAY to make that say (weeks of years) instead of 70 weeks each week having 7 days, is to use the DAY-YEAR principle.

Maybe William Shea's #20 will explain this more fully.

See: William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #20

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Albert, Monday, December 30, 2002 - 10:37 am:
----------------------------------------- Ulrike have you ever read what that curse was? It was if I punish you and you do not repent I will punish you 7 times as much as I just did. Daniel understood from Jer: that they would be in Babylon 70 years, and they still were not obeying God at the time he was praying.
He was worried that they would be in Babylon another 490 years acording to the curse. Why do you need a day for a year to figure that out?

Dan 9:11
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. (KJV)

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Ulrike; Monday, December 30, 2002 - 12:16 pm:
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As far as the "punish you 7 times" -- I agree that Daniel was worried that it would be enforced. That is why he was interceding and asking forgiveness on behalf of his people.
And yes, the levitical formula would be 490 years, built on the 70 years.

However, then the angel comes and we MUST read what the angel says, not what we ourselves "think",
The angel says SEVENTY WEEKS, he doesn't SAY 490 years.

HE IS USING SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE, he is using the day-year principle to come up with the 490 years.

And what wonderful news the angel gave to Daniel -- it was not 7 times cursed-- but 7 times FORGIVENESS!

Matt. 18.21-22
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Israel was given 490 years (a second probation) to prepare for and to to receive the Messiah, Who was promised to come at the end of the 69 weeks--and confirm with them HIS COVENANT of GRACE, but the sad news was that they would reject HIM, and go into desolation with the evil prince. Thus their house was left to them desolate. (Matt. 23:38)

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Jodi: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 07:14 pm:
------------------------------------ Ulrike, if the time of indignation had been 70 literal months in stead of 70 literal years, then when the angel said 70 "weeks" or "sevens" it would have been 490 MONTHS. Had the time of indignation been 70 days, then the 70 "weeks" or "sevens" would have been 490 DAYS. The 70 "weeks" or "sevens" is 490 years in Dan 9, because the time of indignation was literal YEARS.

The oath and curse in the law of Moses are a reference to God incresing the time of indignation by SEVEN...it just so happened that God had given them 70 LITERAL YEARS....and so according to the law of Moses those 70 LITERAL YEARS were "SEVENED"....there is no reason to assume that the "oath written in the law of Moses" means anything other than what it says it means.

Lev 26:14-18

14 "But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments,
15 if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, {and} so break My covenant,
16 I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you will sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies will eat it up.
17 "I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee when no one is pursuing you.
18 "If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
This is exactly why Daniel was praying, and it is exactly what happened.

Dan 9:11
11 "Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.
This has nothing to do with a prophetic "day/year" principle. It is a LITERAL "seven times more" principle established when God convenanted with Israel!

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Ulrike: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 07:55 pm:
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Of course, it has everything to do with the prophetic "day/year". You need to read it in the obvious way it is written instead of putting your own interpretation on it.

The angel says it is 70 weeks, not 490 years.

And each week is made up of 7 days. The word used means WEEK (a seven day period)

Jodi’s argument in her first paragraph kind of reminds me of the position the Jesuit Bellarmine put forth-- He wrote:

“For by “time” ought to be signified, without a doubt, some one number; as one day, one week , one month, one year, means one lustrum, one jubilee, one century, one millennium; but if we should accept one millennium, then antichrist will reign 3500 years, which the adversaries do not admit.” (Froome II page 497) Froome notes that these types of arguments are simply attempting to create confusion on the plain words of scripture, which say “each day for a year” Num. 14:34, Ez. 4:6. This of course is throwing all meaning of prophetic time into a pool of confusion in order to thus destroy the day/year principle.

Besides-- the CURSE was NOT extended seven times at all.
In Daniel's prayer he acknowledges that the seventy years of exile were deserved and that the sinner can only attain to happiness and salvation by turning to God and obeying His commands.

However, after this confession, there now follows the prayer for the turning away of the wrath (9:15,16) of God, and for the manifestation of His grace toward His suppliant people (9:17-19)

Daniel refers to the great deliverance of Israel out of Egypt, by which the Lord made for Himself a name among the nations.
Daniel calls upon the mercy of God and His promises, pleading that God also now turn away His anger from His city of Jerusalem, the "holy mountain" referring especially to the temple mountain. Verse 17 Daniel pleads with God to end the desolation of His sanctuary for His own honour.

When the angel appears, he announces that Jerusalem will be restored.
The captives returned to their homeland at the end of the 70 literal years. They WERE RESTORED TO THEIR HOME LAND.

The text you quote is part of Daniel's pray of intercesion, where he is acknowledging the justice of God in sending them into exile, it is not part of the prophetic revelation from Gabriel.

ALSO Gabriel comes and says SEVENTY WEEKS, he doesn't SAY 490 years. HE IS USING SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE, he is using the day-year principle to come up with the 490 years.

And what wonderful news the angel gave to Daniel -- it was not 7 times cursed-- but 7 times FORGIVENESS,

Matt. 18.21-22

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
This was Jesus showing that the 490 years were years of extended grace and forgiveness NOT A CURSE.

Israel was given 490 years (a second probation) to prepare for and to receive the Messiah, Who was promised to come at the end of the 69 weeks--and confirm with them HIS COVENANT of GRACE.
This was the period the prophets had spoken of when Israel would be restored and the Messiah would come to them.
But the sad news was that they would reject HIM, and go into desolation with the evil prince. Thus their house was left to them desolate. (Matt. 23:38)

But I understand you folk don't think this prophecy is pointing to MESSIAH THE PRINCE--
but that somehow the (70 weeks) extend to another several thousand years, to our time when suddenly another week from the 70 weeks becomes seven years.

Shea's explanation makes far more sense than the the "counter reformation" interpretations now sweeping Christianity.

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Ron: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 12:13 pm:
------------------------------------------------ Ulrike what does Shea say about why the 70 years of Jeremiah is not using the year/day prinicple.

For purposes of the prophecy of the 70 X 7 it is not neccessary to use week of days to come up with the proper conclusion. However if the year/day people cannot make the week into days they lose the only proof they have that the year/day theory works at all. so it becomes critically important to them to insert day into the equation. Not to understand the prophecy that is referred to, but to be able to use the year/day in other places. Kind of manipulative it you ask me.

But Ulrike thank you for posting Shea's writings. Keep it up.

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Ulrike: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 12:49 pm:
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It is obvious that Jeremiah was NOT using the DAY-YEAR PRINCIPLE.
It is also obvious that Daniel nine's 70 weeks are symbolic (week of years-- something that IS NOT A LITERAL THING)
The KEY is in the book itself

Posted Shea's point #9
(Link not active--you'll have to buy his book to get the rest of his excellent points) See: William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #6-10

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Ron: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 03:39 pm:
----------------------------------------- Explain why it is obvious, because it does not seem obvious to me. Some method must be used to differentiate if you say sometimes it is literal time and sometimes it is symbolic of day/year.

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Ulrike: Monday, December 30, 2002-6:37 p.m.
------------------------------------------ Israel was in Babylonian captivity for 70 years.

Earlier you wrote:
I don't think the problem is the word weeks, it is only when somone presumes that is means week of days. Which would be counter intuitive to the context. Since it begins with the seventy years of Jeremiah
So they already know it cannot be week of days since that would have long past.

If you cannot see the "obvious", or as you put it, "intuitive to the context," then you must accept the seventy "sevens" in Daniel 9:24 as seven literal weeks of days as the word (sabua) means "week"-- "a seven" that is seven days.

The Hebrew word for “week,” (sabua) was derived from the word for “seven” (seba). However, it was derived as a specialized term to be applied only to the unit of time consisting of seven days, that is, the “week”.

So why would the word "sebua" mean (7 years) in Daniel 9 and three verses further down "sebua" mean (seven days) in Daniel 10:2-3?

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Ron: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 10:56 pm:
---------------------------- Ok I see you can't answer why what you said was obvious. If a person were to look at Dan. 9 and see the quote of Jeremiah 70 years and then see that from history that either in round numbers or precisely it seems to have been fulfilled as literal years. Then the obvious conclusion would actually be that time prophecies were literal rather then symbolic. Not necessarily precise to the exact year but in the general area.

So if it was obvious to you Ulrike that the 70 years was literal then the following quotation from SDA's Believe page 41 is untrue:
"The key to understanding time prophecies lies in the Biblical principle that a day in prophetic time is equvalent to a literal solar year."

So if Daniel ( begins with a literal time prophecy why would it then switch to symbolic. This is why many commentators and scholars hold to the idea that sevens is meant as the Expositor's Bible Commentary says:

"24 This verse sets forth the approach of "seventy `sevens'" of years during which God would accomplish his plan of national and spiritual redemption for Israel. The seventy "weeks" or "heptads" (sabuim literally means "units of seven," whether days or years) are 490 years (divided, as we shall see, into three sections)

The Expositors's Bible Commontary footnote states:

24 Note that Daniel elsewhere (10:2) specified when he meant weekdays: sheloshah shabhu`im yamim (selosah sabucim yamim, "three weeks").
No plausible argument has ever been raised against the deduction that the heptads here referred to consist of years rather than days, for 490 days would be meaningless in this context.
Almost all the lexicons so define it in connection with this passage (BDB, p. 989; W. Gesenius, Hebraisches and Aramaisches Handworterbuch, 17th ed., ed. F. Buhl [Leipzig, 1921], p. 800; F. Zorell and L. Semkowski, eds., Lexicon Hebraicum et Aramaicum veteris Testamenti [Rome, 1940], p. 815).
KB (p. 940) alone adheres to "period of seven days," apparently on the ground that only symbolic value is involved rather than an actual time. But the preceding verses show that the subject under discussion is the seventy-year captivity predicted in Jer 25:11-12; 29:10. Gabriel's response to Daniel's prayer concerning the termination of the Exile must have had the year-unit in view, not the more usual day-unit. As for the purely symbolic use of "seventy `sevens,'" there is not the slightest analogy for such usage in all Scripture. According to 2 Chronicles 36:21, the Jewish nation had been punished by this captivity so that the land might at last enjoy rest from cultivation for a period equivalent to all the seventh-year Sabbath rests that had been prescribed in the Law of Moses but that had been routinely neglected (Exod 23:10-11; Lev 25:15-11; Deut 15:1-11; 31:10-13).
In this divine oracle, therefore, the multiplying of seventy by seven was analogous to Jesus' response to Peter about the number of times an offender should be forgiven (Matt 18:22).

JER 25:12 "But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt," declares the LORD, "and will make it desolate forever.
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Ulrike: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 12:58 am:
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So you are saying the seventy weeks are literal weeks ?? Or our you now agreeing the seventy weeks employ the day/year principle?

Daniel was reading Jeremiah's warnings to the people living in Jerusalem, which, in Jeremiah's own time, fell to the Babylonians. They were not written in symbolic language. Jeremiah was speaking of the immediate threat and consequences in literal years?

But Daniel's prophecies are in symbolic language, his time periods reach far into the future, so why do you say they must therefore not be symbolic??????

I agree that

"No plausible argument has ever been raised against the deduction that the "sevens" here referred to consist of years rather than days, for 490 days would be meaningless in this context." That's why it is obvious that the day for a year principle is here established.
For it doesn't mean literal 70 weeks.

The word (sabua) occurs 13 times in the OT outside of Dan 9. Virtually all versions fo the Bible are in agreement in translating these instances as “weeks.” If it is “weeks” everywhere else in the OT, then, on the basis of comparative linguistic evidence, it should be rendered “weeks” in Dan. 9.

And a week HAS SEVEN DAYS.

You cannot really answer the argument:
The same point can be made from Dan. 10:2-3 where the word occurs twice as a reference to a period of three “weeks,” during which Daniel mourned and fasted for the fate of his people. The word is modified in this passage by the qualifying word “days.” Because of this some have argued that the expression should be rendered as “weeks of days,” implying thereby that the prophecy of Dan. 9:24 should be understood to mean “weeks (of years). But the argument misunderstands the Hebrew idiom present in this expression.

It is quite arbitrary, therefore, to translate (sabua) as “seven” or “sevens” in Dan 9:24-27 and to translate it as “weeks” three verses later in Dan 10:2,3, as the New International Version renders it in the body of its text. Usages elsewhere in Daniel, elsewhere in the OT, in extra-biblical Hebrew, and in cognate Semitic languages all indicate that this word should be translated as “weeks”. (A seven day period) No support can be obtained from any of these sources for translating this word any other way than as “weeks”.}

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Ulrike: December 31, Tuesday 2:35 p.m.
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As to Jeremiah vs. Daniel---

Dan. 9:24-27 is clearly using the day-year principle.

Prophecies that come with SYMBOLIC imagery use symbolic prophetic time. (day for a year) Prophecies that deal primarily on a literal level, usually use literal time units--though these at times create the "bridge" between the symbolic and the literal understanding. As such Daniel 9:24-27 is the key making the bridge from the literal to the symbolic in actually quite a variety of "links" to Biblical backgrounds, alerting us that Daniel's visions use the symbolic scheme of time.
Daniel's visions are highly symbolic with "beasts, horns, images, toes, stones"-- and symbolic time periods of a day for a year.

Daniel's prophecies are Apocalyptic prophecies--
Jeremiah's prophecies are considered "classical" prophecies--

Here's what William Shea writes:

POSTED SHEA’S #3

See: William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #3

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Ron: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 10:29 am:
-----------------------------------
Ulrike you misread the statement from the Expositor's Bible commentary it said: No plausible argument has ever been raised against the deduction that the heptads here referred to consist of years rather than days, I do grant they did not word it best but their contention is the opposite of what you are thinking they said.

So the whole Dan. 9 Seventy weeks is indicative of weeks of years
490 years. (sevens, literally units of seven) It is really that simple.

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Ulrike Unruh December 31,2002 Tuesday 11:20 a.m.
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I would urge you to read Shea's #19 point-- again.

See: William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #19-20

The Bible does NOT mix the two words
7620 shabua`
7650 shaba`
The word (shabua) means weeks-- that is seven days.

The Hebrew word for “week,” (shabua) was derived from the word for “seven” (sheba)(#7650,7651) which is the cardinal number seven,.. seven times.
However, "shubua" (#7620) was drived as a specialized term to be applied only to the unit of time consisting of seven days, that is, the “week”.

Why do people say they can "change" Biblical words to suit their meanings?

If "sabua" means "a week" of seven days everywhere else, how is it that people think they can change it's meaning in the six occurances in Dan. 9:24-27, yet then revert back to an ordinary seven day week meaning everywhere else? (Not even Strong's concordance has that authority-- just because it's convienent in the six occurances of Dan: 9:24-27)

Yes, using the DAY/YEAR principle -- days, become years. And that principle is found many times in the Old Testament. Not just in turning a week into seven years, but "a day for a year" in other instances.

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William Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 06:12 pm:
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Ulrike, I'm sorry to inform you that most, if not nearly all of the content of the major and minor prophets is Apocalyptic. The material is very much the same. They all speak of the same things. I realize that sometimes in a blizzard of words it is easy to overstep or overstate things which after more reflection uncovers a confused logic. Maybe you didn't intend to cut out Jeremiah's tongue regarding his contribution to the last Apocalyptic message? Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Micah, Joel, etc. are all about the same issues.

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Ron Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 11:29 pm:
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Ulrike wrote: Daniel's prophecies are Apocalyptic prophecies--
Jeremiah's prophecies were not--

No, do you know what Apocalyptic means?
apocalyptic adjective (1663)

1 : of, relating to, or resembling an apocalypse
2 : forecasting the ultimate destiny of the world : prophetic
3 : foreboding imminent disaster or final doom : terrible
4 : wildly unrestrained : grandiose
5 : ultimately decisive : climactic

(C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

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Ulrike Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 10:39 pm:
-------------------------------------

William wrote: "All of the content of the major and minor prophets is Apocalyptic. The material is very much the same. They all speak of the same things…..........."

Yes, I’ll agree that all the prophets contain Apocalyptic messages.

However, there is a difference between Classical prophecy and apocalyptic prophecy.

Classical prophecy speaks in more concrete terms. The times, events, places, and peoples affected by the prophecy are usually either contemporaneous or immediately successive to the time of the prophet. The events forecast have ample time to occur in the times prophesied.
Though the prophet looked at events about him, and spoke to the events about him, yet in God’s infinite ways the messages also spoke to events far beyond his own day.

Apocalyptic prophecy uses more abstract symbols. Horns, scrolls, animals-- with very obvious symbolic meanings. They point to and cover time which generally ends at a point in time far removed from the prophets day.

The literal time periods given (70 weeks, 1260 days, etc.) cannot possible contain the full range of activities prophesied to occur within their literal time frame. Thus they too are symbolic.

Apocalyptic prophecies speak directly to great time spans that reach far into the future.

Neither the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, nor the 3 ½ years of Daniel 7 make much sense when interpreted as literal time.

Thus Jeremiah’s prophecy of Israel’s captivity lasting 70 literal years was a “classical prophecy.

Daniel’s prophecies are time spans that begin in his day and reach down to the end of time--

See: William Shea's Point #3


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Ulrike Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 10:45 pm:
--------------------------------------------

Ron wrote: Daniel's prophecies are Apocalyptic prophecies?
No, do you know what Apocalyptic means? (He then gives a listing of Websters meanings for apocalyptic.)

Now that’s like saying the word “mean” in the sentence above doesn’t mean “to signify understanding of” because Websters also lists its meaning as:
--lacking dignity or honor
--causing trouble
--a value that lies within a range of values
Etc. and etc.

Any single word can have many meanings---

So what are

Apocalyptic prophecies?
--one of the meanings applies--<

They are prophecies forecasting the ultimate destiny of the world.

(Websters Dictionary)

Daniel’s prophecies span earth’s history covering the CHRIST’S WORK OF SALVATION

Daniel 9 --- HE COMES TO EARTH to die for our transgressions
Daniel 8 ---- HE IS in the heavenly sanctuary mediating daily for us; though the powers of earth are doing all they can to trample that truth to the ground. BUT Christ will cleanse HIS sanctuary and show for all eternity who is really on His side.
Daniel 7 ---- CHRIST moves into the judgment work -- the books are opened --- the heavenly host is present as the court is begun.

When that is finished the opposing forces are destroyed and the saints inherit the kingdom. The kingdom of Christ which will NEVER be destroyed.

All Daniel’s prophecies span great sweeps of history and point to the final consummation.

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Ron: Wednesday, January 1, 2003 - 12:11 pm:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Those interested in the subject please follow the link
Summary:

We have seen that this usage of 'weeks' or 'sevens' as meaning 'weeks of years' or 'sevens of years' is well-attested in the Jewish literature. It is suggested by the Tanakh/OT context, by analogous uses of the symbolic connection, and is witnessed to by usage in 'unofficial' Judaism (the Jewish Pseudepigrapha), 'sectarian' Judaism (Qumran), and 'official' Judaism (the Rabbinics). [Later commentators used this same approach, as the original question noted in reference to Rashi.]
Did the Jews understand the "weeks" of Daniel to refer to "years".
Another good disertation from 1887 is:
ON THE THEORY THAT "DAY," IN PROPHECY, MEANS "YEAR."

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Ron Friday, January 3, 2003 - 10:54 pm:
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Shea is under the misapprehension that those who interpret the seventy weeks as weeks of years are trying to blunt the year/day method of interpretation;

A rather paranoid belief when you consider that it was understood as weeks of years by the Early Church Fathers who as it happens could be viewed as historicist in that they also viewed the seventy weeks as fulfilled through Jesus the Messiah.

What it comes down to is the year/day interpretation has no basis in any Biblical verses. And when they use Dan 9 as a "proof" they are left with nothing. And since the prophecy works without using year/day it is highly doubtful that it is the key to other prophecies and evidence that they should be interpreted using the year/day principle.

Some other Early Church Fathers citations to show that they did not use year/day on the seventy weeks. They wrote well before Mede began to popularize the year/day theory.

ORIGEN
Page 742 TRANSLATION FROM THE GREEK.
CHAPTER 1
ON THE INSPIRATION OF HOLY SCRIPTURE....

The place also of His birth has been foretold in (the prophecies of) Micah: “For thou, Bethlehem,” he says, “land of Judah, art by no means the least among the rulers of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a Ruler, who shall rule My people Israel.” And according to Daniel, seventy weeks were fulfilled until (the coming of) Christ the Ruler.

THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS VOLUME 5 page 374 II
The interpretation by Hippolytus, (bishop) of Rome, of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, taken in conjunction.
15. In order, then, to show the time when He is to come whom the blessed Daniel desired to see, he says, “And after seven weeks there are other threescore and two weeks,” which period embraces the space of 434 years. For after the return of the people from Babylon under the leadership of Jesus the son of Josedech, and Ezra the scribe, and Zerubbabel the son of Salathiel, of the tribe of David, there were 434 years unto the coming of Christ, in order that the Priest of priests might be manifested in the world, and that He who taketh away the sins of the world might be evidently set forth, as John speaks concerning Him: “Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!” And in like manner Gabriel says: “To blot out transgressions, and make reconciliation for sins.” But who has blotted out our transgressions? Paul the apostle teaches us, saying, “He is our peace who made both one;” and then, “Blotting out the handwriting of sins that was against us.”

THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS VOLUME 6 Page 289
XVI On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel

And the beginning of the numbers, that is, of the seventy weeks which make up 490 years, the angel instructs us to take from the going forth of the commandment to answer and to build Jerusalem. And this happened in the twentieth year of the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia.

THE NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS
SECOND SERIES, VOLUME 13 Page 740 APHRAHAT
Demonstration XXI. — OF PERSECUTION
And Jerusalem has been inhabited, after the Babylonians laid it waste, during those seventy weeks about which Daniel testified. Then it was laid waste in its last destruction by the Romans, and it shall not be inhabited again for ever, for it abideth in desolation until the accomplishment of the things determined. So then, all the years of the former and latter desolation of Jerusalem have been four hundred and sixty-five years, and when thou dost deduct from them the seventy years of Babylon, they have been three hundred and ninety-five years.

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Ulrike
--------------------------------------------

Did you notice something in the quotes you gave?

ORIGEN:
"according to Daniel, seventy weeks were fulfilled until (the coming of) Christ"
So Origen understood it as 490 years, even though he wrote "seventy weeks".

HIPPOLYTUS:
In order, then, to show the time when He is to come whom the blessed Daniel desired to see, he says, “And after seven weeks there are other threescore and two weeks,” which period embraces the space of 434 years.

So Hippolytus transposes the 70 weeks into 490 years.

Next quote:
"that is, of the seventy weeks which make up 490 years,"
Again note the author is taking the 70 weeks and turning them into 490 years.

They were applying the day/year principle even though as yet they had not applied it to other prophecies, they understood the principle in Daniel 9.

What people who are speaking against the day/year principle won’t acknowledge is that there is no such thing as a literal week of years.
A literal week is made up of SEVEN DAYS.
Any concept of a week of years is symbolic, where the seven days now mean seven years. That is the DAY-YEAR principle

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Ron Friday, January 3, 2003 - 10:59 pm:
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A little more for Ulrike
Ulrike Wrote:
The word (sabua) means weeks-- that is seven days.
The Hebrew word for “week,” (sabua) was derived from the word for “seven” (seba). However, it was drived as a specialized term to be applied only to the unit of time consisting of seven days, that is, the “week” <

No the term is for seven.

Strong's Number: 7620 (wb#
(wb# properly, pass part of (07650) as a denom. of (07651)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Shabuwa` shaw-boo'-ah
Parts of Speech TWOT Noun Masculine 2318d
Definition

1. seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
1. period of seven days, a week
1. Feast of Weeks
2. heptad, seven (of years)

Translated Words
KJV (20) - seven, 1; week, 19;

NAS (24) - Weeks, 5; seven, 1; week, 4; weeks, 14;
Brown, Driver, Briggs and Gesenius. "Hebrew Lexicon entry for Shabuwa`". "The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon".

Ulrike, you might like the straight foward whay Dr. J. Vernon McGee explains the Seventy Weeks from his commentary on Daniel:

"Seventy weeks" does not mean weeks of seven days any more than it means weeks of seven years or seven other periods of time. The Hebrew word for "seven" is shabua, meaning "a unit of measure." It would be comparable to our word dozen. When it stands alone, it could be a dozen of anything--a dozen eggs, a dozen bananas. So here, Seventy Weeks means seventy sevens. It could be seventy sevens of anything. It could be units of days or months or years. In the context of this verse it is plain that Daneil has been reading in Jeremiah about years, seventy years. Jeremiah had been preaching and writing that the captivity would be for seventy years. The seventy years of captivity were the specific penalty for violating seventy sabbatic years. That would be seventy sevens, a total of 490 years. In those 490 years, Israel had violated exactly seventy sabbatic years: so they would go into captivity for seventy years. "To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years. (2 Chr 36:21). Maybe you Gleason Archer would be helpful to you:
Daniel 9:24 reads: Seventy weeks have been determined for your people and your holy city [i.e., for the nation Israel and for Jerusalem]." The word for "week" is sabu, which is derived from seba, the word for "seven." Its normal plural is feminine in form: sbuot. Only in this chapter of Daniel does it appear in the masculine plural sabuim. (The only other occurrence is in the combination sbue sbuot ["heptads of weeks"] in Ezek. 21:28 [21:23 English text]). Therefore, it is strongly suggestive of the idea "heptad" (a series or combination of seven), rather than a "week" in the sense of a series of seven days. There is no doubt that in this case we are presented with seventy sevens of years rather than of days. This leads to a total of 490 years. ( Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties page 298

As Shea wrote:
The word (sabua) occurs 13 times in the OT outside of Dan 9. Virtually all versions of the Bible are in agreement in translating these instances as “weeks.” If it is “weeks” everywhere else in the OT, then, on the basis of comparative linguistic evidence, it should be rendered “weeks” in Dan. 9.

No interpreters are complaining about the word weeks, it is the implication that it is week of days that is at question. Many Bibles while using weeks in the text will then footnote the meaning is week of years.

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Sorensen Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 8:15 am:
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"No interpreters are complaining about the word weeks, it is the implication that it is week of days that is at question. Many Bibles while using weeks in the text will then footnote the meaning is week of years."
Well, Ron, they all seem to agree that it is 490 years and that clearly supports the year/day principle. So......what's your point??? Maybe I missed something here.
Sorensen
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Ron Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 11:51 am:
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Of course it does not, weeks of years comes to 490 years, that is how it was viewed, none of the Early Church Fathers mentioned a year for a day concept. They say that simply by the context it was speaking of seventy sevens and since the subject was Jeremiah's seventy years and it was literal years the seventy sevens (weeks) is also years. Maybe you did not even read the two posts above yours, I do think you are missing a lot.
The best you can say is it does not hurt the year-day principle but then again it does not help it either since the 490 years can be arrived at without the year-day principle as the ECF quotes show. Unfortunately for the year-day proponets this chapter is their only evidence that the year day principle even works. And as I pointed out earlier, it did not even work in the first mention of the seventy years Daniel quotes from Jeremiah. So they are already inconsistent in their application of its use.


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Ulrike Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 10:54 pm:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ron wrote: We have seen that this usage of 'weeks' or 'sevens' as meaning 'weeks of years' or 'sevens of years' is well-attested in the Jewish literature.
He referred us to the link "Did the Jews Understand the 70 weeks to refer to years?"

I found the article to simply confirm the fact that yes the Jews understood the “day” for a “year” principle. It was built right into their ceremonies.

I also read in the article that:

… In the Tanakh/OT ..evidence from the context of the passage in Daniel and evidence from other passages in which a day symbolizes a year. The sources he quotes all “illustrate the usage of periods of time to represent other periods of time.”
Of course the author then goes to great lengths to (in my opinion) contradict himself saying yes, time has symbolic meaning, but no it is not symbolic meaning.

Ron wrote:
it was speaking of seventy sevens and since the subject was Jeremiah's seventy years and it was literal years the seventy sevens (weeks) is also years.

However Ron fails to see that Jeremiah spoke IN YEARS.
The angel spoke IN WEEKS.
If it was meant to be simply SEVEN TIMES the captivity why did the angel not say SEVEN times the Seventy YEARS? That would place a clear link to Jeremiah's seventy years.

Why does the passage switch from YEARS when refering to Jeremiah, to weeks, when refering to the apocaliptic prophecies?

There has to be SOME PRINCIPLE in place which leads people to understand that the weeks are the symbolic weeks of years, not the literal weeks of days.


What people who are speaking against the day/year principle won’t acknowledge is that there is no such thing as a literal week of years.

A literal week is made up of SEVEN DAYS. Any concept of a week of years is symbolic, where the seven days now mean seven years. That is the DAY-YEAR principle

I really have a hard time grasping the argument that shows how the symbolic day for a year principle is found in so many places and that this somehow refutes the day for a year principle.

No, no-- it confirms and substantiates it.


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Ulrike Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 11:44 pm:
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Ron further quotes "The Hebrew word for "seven" is shabua, meaning "a unit of measure."

Yes it is a “unit of measure” but not like “dozen” it is a unit OF TIME. It means “week”.

Do you have any instance where "shabua" is used as having a "shabua" of bread, or a "shabua" of children? etc.
NO! Shabua means “week”.

A literal "week" has seven days. (A seven)
If you have a "week of years" you are using symbolic language--the day for a year principle.

Think of it this way--
We have a word "century".
Century comes from the root "centi" (A HUNDRED)
It means a hundred years.
What would you think of people who say
A century could be a century of weeks or a century of years depending on the context?

Thus too, a WEEK, means seven days,
When we have a week of years that is symbolic and using the day/year principle.

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Ron Sunday, January 5, 2003 - 11:12 am:
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That does not make year day prinicple the reason, they are analogies. That is why it makes so much sense to see the weeks as years just like the sabbatical years which Israel never kept. The problem comes when people like Shea read into the analogy the idea of year-day principle. Wicked people are used as analogies to stubble or grass. That does not mean that stubble or grass is always to be understood as wicked people.

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Ulrike Sunday, January , 2003 - 11:44 am:
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There are many types of analogies:
If this is an analogy it would follow under (meaning #3 in Websters)
"The correspondence between the members of pairs or sets of linguistic forms that serves as a basis for the creation of another form."

Thus each day for a year, and we have the standard "tool" of the day/year principle.
Thus seven days for seven years, and again we have the standard "tool" of the day/year principle.

The "people are like grass" analogy is in a different class--
actually it's a simile-- a comparative figure of speech.

 

Speaking of analogies--

The linguistic usage of "days" paired with "years" in prose and poetic passages of the OT forms a background for the development of the day-year principle.

Are the days as the days of man,
or thy years as man's years? (Job 10:5)

The wicked man writhes in pain all his days
through all the years that are laid up (Job 15:20)

I said, "let days speak,
and many years teach wisdom. (Job 32:7)

If they harken and serve him,
they complete their days in propsperity,
and their years in pleasantness. (Job 36:11)

Remember the days of old,
consider the years of many generations; (Deut. 32:7)

I consider the days of old,
I remember the years long ago. (Ps. 77:5)

"The close and particular relationship between "days" and "years" that is found both in the prose and poetry of the OT provides a background for the more specific application of this type of thought in apocalyptic time prophecies.

The parallelism presented does not employ "days" to refer to short periods of time and "years" to long periods. The terms refer to the same periods but are calibrated in shorter and longer units. This is the same manner of thinking that is encountered in time prophecies, but there the equivalence has been made more numerically specific."
(From Shea's point #14)

See another page on the day-year principle

156 (12/01/03)