-------------------------------------------------- Ron: Sunday , December 29, 2002 - 12:26 am: -------------------------------------------------- Ron-- I'm not going to get into a debate with you here on this. Read the book and then if you can debunk it, go ahead. I could respect those who have made an attempt to deal with it, even if I disagree with their response, than I could those like Cottrell and Ford who howl against the stuff but don't have the guts to flesh it out. Read the book and if you feel the arguments are wrong, show why. And, as I said, even if I would disagree (and who knows, maybe you can debunk them) I would respect your attempt anyway. I would be fascinated to see how people would refute what Shea did in that section. To me, at this point, the day-year principle is axiomatic. I see it all through the Hebrew Bible, more and more but that's not the point. The point, to reiterate, is that critics like Ford and Cottrell love to wail against the day/year principle and yet for some strange reason they refuse to tackle head on the church's best apologetic for it. Hmmmm . . .wonder why? I think I know why but there's no sense lowering myself to the level of one very prolific writer on here (whom I won't mention by name) who likes to get ad hominum. Let's see now who is afraid to tackle an issue head on? You refuse to post on the IJ, and now you refuse to post simple arguments from Shea's book on the year day principle. It is doubtful that your life is more busy then most of the people on this forum, except maybe the few retired folk. Yet we find time to discuss issues and exchange views. With only a few exceptions we don't just repeat the same things over and over again. (If the shoe fits, wear it).Is it any wonder people like Tom get so upset with the people at the GC. Is it any wonder that Cottrell calls some of them obscurantists. Remember no one asked you to debate the year day just post some of the arguments for it. Even the book SDA's Believe just states its acceptance of the year day and then footnotes to see Shea's book. Something so important as that to the whole eschatology of the SDA church and that is all the coverage it gets. There were hundreds of previously believed timetables based upon the year day principle. All have failed and the adherents have abandoned the concept. Leaving the SDA church alone, and apparently afraid to even express why she believes as she does.
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---------------------------------------------- Ulrike Sunday Dec. 29, 2002 ----------------------------------------------
The following is an excerpt taken from the
The preterist view of apocalyptic prophecies and their time elements essentially leaves the whole Christian era, with the exception of a very small initial fraction, without any direct historical or prophetic evaluation by God upon the course of that history. Such a perspective stands in marked contrast to the OT view of history in which the mighty acts of God on behalf o His people are recited through biblical history from Abraham to Ezra. Old Testament history involves both a recitation of those events and prophetic evaluations of their character. The same approach to the history of the Christian era is found prospectively in the apocalyptic books of Daniel and Revelation when they are interpreted along historicist lines, but not when they are interpreted along preterist lines. The futurist interpretation of apocalyptic poses a similar problem. It also leaves most of the history of the Christian era unaddressed by God except in general spiritual terms. After this lengthy historical and prophetic vacuum, futurists then see the prophetic voice again taking up a concern for the last seven years of earth's history. From the viewpoint of the "continuous" historical school of prophetic interpretation, the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation provide a divinely inspired, descriptive overview and evaluation of some of the most theologically significant events of this era. The Christian era is seen to stand in continuity with the historical description and prophetic evaluation of events in the OT era. The same God has been active in a similar way in both of these dispensations. This larger view of God's more comprehensive interaction with human history carries with it the corollary that the statements about time found in these prophecies cover a more extensive sweep of history than can be accounted for on a purely literal basis." p. 56 --------------------------------- #2. Theology of Prophetic Time Periods A dozen time prophecies occur in the historical narratives and classical prophets of the OT. More than a dozen also appear in Daniel and Revelation. The volume of material implies that this kind of prophetic view was important to the God who revealed these prophecies. In order to determine what is particularly significant about time prophecies, it may be noted, generally speaking, that what happens during these periods can be evaluated as adverse, or bad, from the human point of view. At their end a more favourable turn of events occurs. Thus these time prophecies appear to delimit periods during which adverse circumstances, or evils, are permitted by God to prevail. Examples of this kind of activity in the historical narratives and classical prophets of the OT can be found in the cases of the 120 years to which man's wickedness was limited before the Flood (Gen. 6:3), the 400 years prophesied for the oppression of Abraham's descendants in Egypt (Gen 15:13), the seven years of drought and famine prophesied through Joseph, the three and a half years of drought and famine prophesied through Elijah (1 Kings 17:1), and the 70 years of exile for God's people prophesied by Jeremiah (Jer. 25:11) In apocalyptic prophecies we find the 3 1/2 time--42 months--1260 days-- for the persecution of God's people referred to twice in Daniel (7:25; 12:7) and five times in Revelation (11:2,3; 12:6,14: 13:5) Another period of persecution lasting 10 days is referred to in Revelation 2:10. Men were to be hurt for five months under Revelation's fifth trumpet (9:5), and men were to be killed for a longer period of time under its sixth trumpet (9:15). God's witnesses were to lie dead in the streets for three and a half days before their resurrection (Rev. 11:9), and the abomination of desolation was allowed to hold sway for 1290 days (Dan. 12:11). Again, at the conclusion of each of these time periods these adverse conditions for the people of God were to be reversed. To recall these examples is not to say that ALL time prophecies refer to something bad or adverse as occurring with the epochs they delimit. The seven years of plenty in the time prophecy given Pharaoh is an example of a period of prosperity (Gen. 41). While certain dire events were forecast as transpiring during the 70 weeks prophecy (Dan. 9: 24-27), yet some very positive accomplishments would also take place during that era. Nevertheless, even in these two instance the good is linked with the less beneficial. The seven good years were preparation for the seven years of famine to follow. The negative response to the Messiah by the people was seen as resulting in terrible consequences for the nation. Thus when the whole spectrum of time prophecies are taken into consideration, it may be seen that in general they delimit periods of adverse conditions. This pattern is similar to the larger pattern of the whole economy of sin through the history of the human race. That too will finally be delimited and concluded when God brings to an end human history as we now know it. Thus human history can be looked upon as a probationary period during which evil has been allowed to work its way; but God will soon intervene and bring that probationary period to a close. In the same way, but on a smaller scale, these time prophecies appear to have delimited similar experiences at various points through the course of human history. The fact that God brought these temporary episodes of evil's ascendancy to their conclusions at prophetically appointed times is an earnest or taken of the fact that He will also bring the whole economy of sin to its conclusion at the appointed time (Act 17:31) The literal time periods present in the prophecies of the historical narratives and the classical prophets were ample for the outworking of evil's purposes. This holds true for the 120 years until the Flood, the 400 years for oppressing the Israelites in Egypt, and the 70 years they were swept off their land during the Babylonian exile, etc. If the time periods in apocalyptic are also interpreted as literal, however, the same principle of fairness in the great controversy would not appear to operate. The great sponsor of these evils could reasonably complain that he was not given sufficient time to demonstrated the superiority of his program if the 3 1/2 days, 10 days, 3 1/2 time-years, etc., in apocalyptic were only literal time units. The best way to resolve this theological disparity between the significance of literal time in classical prophecy and interpreting time in apocalyptic as literal is to interpret the time units in the latter as symbolic rather than literal." p. 57-58 ------------------------
The time periods that occur in the two types of prophecies discussed above contrast in general with regard to their length, if they are all interpreted as literal time.
The time prophecies encountered in historical narratives and classical prophets of the OT run as long as 400 years (Gen. 15:13)
The longest of the time periods in apocalyptic extends for only 6 1/2 years when the 2300 evenings and mornings of Dan 8:14 are evaluated as literal time; and some commentators would (incorrectly) cut this period in half. Two of these contrasting long and short time prophecies occur in the same chapter of Dan 9. In this chapter Daniel's prayer for the fulfillment of Jeremiah's 70 years is answered with another prophecy about 70 weeks, or only a year and a half, if literal time is involved. An important point to note here involves the END POINT IN VIEW in these two different kinds of time prophecy. In the prophecies found in historical narratives or classical prophets of the OT the time periods are connected generally with people who are either contemporaneous or immediately successive to the time of the prophet. Apocalyptic prophecies, on the other hand, not only speak to the immediate historical context of the prophet, but also to more distant times--even down to the end of time when the ultimate kingdom of God will be set up. Thus a difference in focus--in terms of time-- is involved here. Classical prophecy concentrates on the short-range time view while apocalyptic includes the long-range view. These differences pose a paradox. The time periods in classical prophecy which concentrates on the short-range view are longer than those occurring in apocalyptic which focus on the long-range view (that is, if the time elements in apocalyptic are interpreted as literal). The most reasonable way to resolve the paradox and restore parallelism, and balance to this equation is to interpret the time periods in apocalyptic as symbolic (day for a year) thus standing for considerably longer periods of actual historical time. ----------------------- William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #19
All commentators on Daniel agree that the events prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27 could not have been completed within a literal 70 weeks or one year and five months. Since this prophetic time period stands symbolically for a longer period of actual historical time, it is important to decide just how the length of that longer period should be determined. Crucial here is the word (sabua) which occurs six times in its singular and plural forms in these four verses. Since this word provides the basic periods of the prophecy, its translation plays an important part in the way in which the interpreter derives them. Two main but significantly different approaches have been taken toward this matter. The first is to translate the word as “weeks” and to derive the prophecy’s time periods from the “days” which compose them. The calculation is done on the basis of the year-day principle. Thus each day of these “weeks” is viewed as a prophetic day standing for a historical year. This is the approach taken by the historicist school of thought. The second approach is to translate this word as “sevens, besevened, heptads, hebdomads” or the like. From this purely numerical kind of translation it is then held that (sabua) carries with it directly implied “years,” that is, it is taken to mean “seven (of years)” literal and not symbolic time. In this manner the intervening step through which those “years” would have been derived from the “days” of the prophetic “weeks” has been avoided by the interpreter. This is the approach taken by the preterist and futurist schools of thought. One reason for this approach in translation is to separate the 70 week prophecy of Dan 9 from the other time prophecies of the book and to place it in a distinct class by itself. The effect of this is to blunt the implications of the year-day principle advocated by the historicist system of interpretation. If the year-day principle is thus denied its function in the interpretation of Dan 9:24-27, then preterists and futurists alike are at liberty to deny its application to the other time prophecies. On the other hand, if it is valid to apply the year-day principle to the “days” of the “weeks” in Dan 9, then it is logical to apply the same principle to the “days” in the time prophecies found elsewhere in Daniel as well as to the apocalyptic writings of Revelation. Thus a prominent way in which the attempt has been made to parry the thrust of this logical conclusion has been to translate (sabua) as “sevens” instead of “weeks”. An examination of the way this word should be translated is of importance, therefore, in any discussion of the year-day principle of Daniel’s time prophecies. The Hebrew word for “week,” (sabua) was derived from the word for “seven" (seba). However, it was drived as a specialized term to be applied only to the unit of time consisting of seven days, that is, the “week”. A different vocalization was utilized for this specialization. This difference is evident even in unpointed Hebrew texts (Hebrew consonants written without vowels) since the Hebrew letter (waw) was consistently written as the u-vowel letter in this particular word (cf Dan. 9:27). This spelling is consistent in the Bible as well as in all six of the texts from Qumran in which this word has appeared. To give this word only a numerical value in Dan 9, therefore, confuses its etymological origin with its derived form and function. The masculine plural ending on this word in Dan 9, in contrast to its feminine plural ending elsewhere in the OT, is of significance only in indcating that it is one of many Hebrew nouns with dual gender. (1) The same phenomenon can be demonstrated for the occurrence of this word in Mishnaic Hebrew, Qumran Hebrew, Qumran Aramaic, and also later Syriac and Ethiopic texts. Furthermore, if the masculine plural in Dan 9:24 was intended to be understood numerically, the consonantal phrase of (sb'ym sb'ym) should be translated as “seventy seventies” not as “seventy sevens.” The word (sabua) occurs 13 times in the OT outside of Dan 9. Virtually all versions fo the Bible are in agreement in translating these instances as “weeks.” If it is “weeks” everywhere else in the OT, then, on the basis of comparative linguistic evidence, it should be rendered “weeks” in Dan. 9. Seven of these occurrences outside of Dan. 9 are connected with the “Feast of Weeks” or “Pentecost.” Clearly, this is the “Feast of Weeks” not the "Feast of Sevens.” The same point can be made from Dan. 10:2-3 where the word occurs twice as a reference to a period of three “weeks,” during which Daniel mourned and fasted for the fate of his people. The word is modified in this passage by the qualifying word “days.” Because of this some have argued that the expression should be rendered as “weeks of days,” implying thereby that the prophecy of Dan. 9:24 should be understood to mean “weeks (of years)". But the argument misunderstands the Hebrew idiom present in this expression. When a time unit such as a week, month, or year is followed by the word for “days” in the plural, the idiom is to be understood to signify “full” or “complete” units. Thus the expression “a full month” or “a whole month,” reads literally in the Hebrew, “month days,” or “month of days,” See Gen 29:14; Num 11:20-21; Judg. 19:2 (in this latter instance the word for “days” precedes the term for “month”) The expression , “full years,” reads literally, “years days.” See Gen 41:1; Lev. 25:29; 2 Sam. 13:23; 14:28. Thus the Hebrew expression in Dan. 10:2-3 namely, “three weeks days,” means, according to this idiom, “three full weeks,” or “three whole weeks,” Linguistically this idiom prevents the conclusion from being drawn that “weeks of days” in contrast to “weeks (of years)” is implied in this passage. It is quite arbitrary, therefore, to translate (sabua) as “seven” or “sevens” in Dan 9:24-27 and to translate it as “weeks” three verses later in Dan 10:2,3, as the New International Version renders it in the body of its text. Usages elsewhere in Daniel, elsewhere in the OT, in extra-biblical Hebrew, and in cognate Semitic languages all indicate that this word should be translated as “weeks”. No support can be obtained from any of these sources for translating this word any other way than as “weeks”. A similar point can be made from the Greek of the Septuagint (commonly designated LXX, a translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek during the latter part of the intertestamental period before Christ). The cardinal numeral “seven” occurs more than 300 time in the LXX and is consistently represented by (hepta) and its derived forms. (2) In 17 of the 19 instance in which (sabua) occurs in the Hebrew OT, the LXX translates it with the feminine collective (hebdomas) and its derived forms. (The other two instances give no insight on the use of this term, inasmuch as the “two weeks” of Lev. 12:5 are rendered “twice seven days” and the Greek of Jer. 5:24 is rather remote from the Hebrew text.) There is no overlap in the LXX usage between (hebdomas) for “weeks” on the one hand and (hebdomads and hepta) for “seventh” and “seven” on the other. If 11 references to (hebdomas) outside of Dan 9 should be translated as “weeks” instead of “sevens” then again, on the basis of comparative LXX usage, they should also be translated that way in Dan. 9. From both Semitic sources and the LXX it may be concluded, therefore, that the best linguistic evidence currently available supports translating (sabua) as “weeks” in Dan 9:24-27. This word thus carries the year-day principle along with it in the 70 weeks prophecy. Furthermore, its application there may be reasonably extended to the other time prophecies of Daniel. --------------------------------------------------------------- # 20 WEEKS AND YEARS in DANIEL 9 Daniel’s prayer in ch 9 begins with an appeal to God for the return of His people to their land on the basis of the 70 years Jeremiah prophesied they would be exiled in Babylon (v. 2; cf Jer. 25:12; 29:10) In answer to his prayer, Gabriel assured Daniel they would return and rebuild the temple and captial city. In doing so, Gabriel also delimited another period of prophetic time: 70 weeks. During that period other events, beyond the previously mentioned ones, would take place (Dan. 9:24-27) Since these events could not have been accomplished in 70 literal weeks, it is evident that this later time period was intended to be understood symbolically. The seven-day week provided the model upon which the symbolic units of that time period were based. Thus we find two prophetic time periods in this narrative of Dan 9--the 70 years at its beginning and the 70 weeks at its end; the one literal, the other symbolic. What is the relationship between these two time periods? A relationship between them can be seen from the fact that both are prophetic in nature, and the latter is given in answer to the prayer about the former. A relationship between them can also be suggested on the basis of their location in similar positions in the literary structure of the narrative. This structure may be outlined as A:B:C::A’:B’:C’, in which A and A’ represent the introductory vs. 1 and 20-23; B and B’ represent the 70 years and the 70 weeks; and C and C’ represent the rest of Daniel’s prayer and the rest of Gabriel’s prophecy respectively. The fact that the prophecy of vs 24-27 begins with a time element (70 weeks) instead of ending with it ( as is more common in the other prophecies of Daniel 7:25; 8:14; 12:7,11-12) has the effect of juxtaposing the 70 week period with what precedes it; namely, Daniel’s prayer and the 70 year period he mentions as prompting his prayer.
Another way these two time periods are linked is through their common use of the number 70. This is no random selection of numbers. The latter has been directly modeled after the former. The latter time period (the 70 weeks) is symbolic.
These two time prophecies are also related by the fact that both are multiples of seven. When the 70 weeks are multiplied by their individual units, they are found to contain seven times more symbolic units than the literal units of the 70 years (70 years: 490 day-years).
Furthermore, when the symbolic units of the 70 years are interpreted according to the literal units of the 70 years, a relationship is produced which parallels the relationship between the jubilee period and sabbatical year period (Lev. 25:1-19).
Sabbatical year terminology was applied to Jeremiah’s 70-year prediction of Babylonian captivity by the chronicler: “to fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfil seventy years” (2 Chr. 26:21). Since the land rested every seventh year, it is evident that the inspired writer viewed the 70 years of captivity as the sum of ten sabbatical-year periods. Inasmuch as the 70 year period (referred to by Daniel in vs. 2 just prior to his prayer) was understood to relate to the sabbatical-year legislation (Lev. 25:1-7) it may be expected that the 70 week period (at the close of his prayer) would be related to the jubilee period. This is the sequence in Lev. 25:1-17 (sabbatical year-jubilee). Thus the 70 weeks, or 490 years (on the year-day principle) may be seen as ten jubilee periods even as the 70 years were seen as ten sabbatical-year periods. This relationship was already evident to the Essenes at Qumran in the first century B.C. When writers among them came to interpret Daniel’s 70 weeks, they more commonly referred to them as ten jubilees. But jubilees can only consist of years. It is evident, therefore, that they applied the year-day principle to this time prophecy even though all occurrences of the word (sabua) which have appeared in the Dead Sea Scrolls published thus far indicate that word ONLY MEANT “WEEKS” for them. Supplementary support for these sabbatical year-jubilee relationships to Daniel’s 70 weeks can be found in the fact that they were fulfilled historically through events that occurred in post-exilic sabbatical years. The years 457 B.C. and A.D. 27 and 34 were sabbatical years. (4) SUMMARY Internally, the 70 years and the 70 weeks of Dan 9 relate t each other in five ways: (1) both are prophetic; (2) both are linked in a sequence of question and answer; (3) both are located in similar positions in the literary structure of the chapter; (4) both are specifically for the Jews; and (5) both use the #70 and its base of seven. These relations are strengthened by the external parallels between the 70-year and the 70-week couplet in Dan 9 and the sabbatical year and jubilee couplet in Lev 26:
2. Terminology. Sabbatical-year terminology is applied to the 70-year period (Lev. 25:1-7’ 2 Chr. 36:21; Dan 9:2). Since the land “enjoyed” a Sabbath every seven years, it is evident that the 70-year period of captivity contained ten sabbatical years. In like manner, jubilee terminology is linked to the 70 weeks, for a jubilee period was also measured in terms of “weeks” (seven weeks [Sabbaths] of years, or 49 years). The 70 weeks, or literally the 490 years, therefore, contained ten jubilees. 3. Qumran. Inasmuch as the Bible writer (2Chr 36:21) viewed the 70-year captivity as a period of ten sabbatical years in which the land kept Sabbath, so it may be inferred that the 70-weeks or 490-year period was to be viewed as a period of ten jubilees. Since the first century BC writers in Qumran interpreted the 70 weeks as ten jubilees, it is evident that they consciously employed the year-day principle. It is also evident that they saw a definite link between the time couplets of Dan. 9 and Lev. 25. 4 Chronology. The 70 weeks of Dan 9 are related also to the sabbatical years of Lev 25 through their fulfillment historically in the known post-exilic sabbatical years of 457 B.C., A.D. 27, and A.D. 34.
Diethelm Michel, Grundlegung einer Hebraischen Syntax 1 (Vluyn: Neukirchener Verlag, 1977): 34-39; Mordechai Ben-Asher, “The Gender of Nouns in Biblical Hebrew,” Semitics, 6(Pretoria, 1978):9
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------------------------------------------------ Ron: Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 10:06 pm: ------------------------------------------------ I don't think the problem is the word weeks, it is only when somone presumes that is means week of days. Which would be counter intuitive to the context. Since it begins with the seventy years of Jeremiah So they already know it cannot be week of days since that would have long past. 1 In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom-- 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. 3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.(NIV)
Strongs says: KJV-- seven, week.
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------------------------------------ Ulrike Unruh Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 11:22 pm: ------------------------------------ A "week" means 7 days, the word "week" does not mean seven years, unless one applies the day/year principle-- that was the whole point of the above post #19. The word ‘shabua' means ‘a seven'. But go back and read Shea's study #19. See: William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #19-20
It is correct to say the word (#7620 "Shabua") means "a seven". Therefore, every time the word "week" or "weeks" is used in the Old Testament, (that is referring to a literal 7 day week) the word "Shaboa" or "a seven" is the word used in the original. The word MEANS a week, or SEVEN DAYS.
"Thou shalt observe the Feast of WEEKS (a seven). Ex. 34:22 The very simple and obvious (though strangely highly fought against) truth is that Daniel 9 gives us the key to the day-year principle.
The word (sabua) means weeks-- that is seven days. Yet everyone knows the passage is talking about (a week of years) Now there is no such thing as a week of years. A week is comprised of SEVEN DAYS. Thus the phrase (week of years) is purely symbolic language. It is USING THE DAY_YEAR PRINCIPLE.
When the angel says "Seventy weeks are determined for your people" Maybe William Shea's #20 will explain this more fully. See: William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #20
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----------------------------------------- Albert, Monday, December 30, 2002 - 10:37 am: ----------------------------------------- He was worried that they would be in Babylon another 490 years acording to the curse. Why do you need a day for a year to figure that out?
Dan 9:11
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-------------------------------------- Ulrike; Monday, December 30, 2002 - 12:16 pm: -------------------------------------- And yes, the levitical formula would be 490 years, built on the 70 years.
However, then the angel comes and we MUST read what the angel says, not what we ourselves "think", HE IS USING SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE, he is using the day-year principle to come up with the 490 years. And what wonderful news the angel gave to Daniel -- it was not 7 times cursed-- but 7 times FORGIVENESS!
Matt. 18.21-22 Israel was given 490 years (a second probation) to prepare for and to to receive the Messiah, Who was promised to come at the end of the 69 weeks--and confirm with them HIS COVENANT of GRACE, but the sad news was that they would reject HIM, and go into desolation with the evil prince. Thus their house was left to them desolate. (Matt. 23:38)
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------------------------------------ Jodi: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 07:14 pm: ------------------------------------ The oath and curse in the law of Moses are a reference to God incresing the time of indignation by SEVEN...it just so happened that God had given them 70 LITERAL YEARS....and so according to the law of Moses those 70 LITERAL YEARS were "SEVENED"....there is no reason to assume that the "oath written in the law of Moses" means anything other than what it says it means.
14 "But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, 15 if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, {and} so break My covenant, 16 I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you will sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies will eat it up. 17 "I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee when no one is pursuing you. 18 "If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 11 "Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.
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-------------------------------------- Ulrike: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 07:55 pm: -------------------------------------- The angel says it is 70 weeks, not 490 years. And each week is made up of 7 days. The word used means WEEK (a seven day period) Jodi’s argument in her first paragraph kind of reminds me of the position the Jesuit Bellarmine put forth-- He wrote:
Besides-- the CURSE was NOT extended seven times at all. However, after this confession, there now follows the prayer for the turning away of the wrath (9:15,16) of God, and for the manifestation of His grace toward His suppliant people (9:17-19)
Daniel refers to the great deliverance of Israel out of Egypt, by which the Lord made for Himself a name among the nations.
When the angel appears, he announces that Jerusalem will be restored. The text you quote is part of Daniel's pray of intercesion, where he is acknowledging the justice of God in sending them into exile, it is not part of the prophetic revelation from Gabriel. ALSO Gabriel comes and says SEVENTY WEEKS, he doesn't SAY 490 years. HE IS USING SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE, he is using the day-year principle to come up with the 490 years. And what wonderful news the angel gave to Daniel -- it was not 7 times cursed-- but 7 times FORGIVENESS,
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Israel was given 490 years (a second probation) to prepare for and to receive the Messiah, Who was promised to come at the end of the 69 weeks--and confirm with them HIS COVENANT of GRACE.
But I understand you folk don't think this prophecy is pointing to MESSIAH THE PRINCE-- Shea's explanation makes far more sense than the the "counter reformation" interpretations now sweeping Christianity.
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----------------------------------------------- Ron: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 12:13 pm: ------------------------------------------------ For purposes of the prophecy of the 70 X 7 it is not neccessary to use week of days to come up with the proper conclusion. However if the year/day people cannot make the week into days they lose the only proof they have that the year/day theory works at all. so it becomes critically important to them to insert day into the equation. Not to understand the prophecy that is referred to, but to be able to use the year/day in other places. Kind of manipulative it you ask me. But Ulrike thank you for posting Shea's writings. Keep it up.
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--------------------------------------- Ulrike: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 12:49 pm: --------------------------------------- It is also obvious that Daniel nine's 70 weeks are symbolic (week of years-- something that IS NOT A LITERAL THING) The KEY is in the book itself
Posted Shea's point #9
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---------------------------------------- Ron: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 03:39 pm: -----------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------- Ulrike: Monday, December 30, 2002-6:37 p.m. ------------------------------------------
Earlier you wrote: If you cannot see the "obvious", or as you put it, "intuitive to the context," then you must accept the seventy "sevens" in Daniel 9:24 as seven literal weeks of days as the word (sabua) means "week"-- "a seven" that is seven days. The Hebrew word for “week,” (sabua) was derived from the word for “seven” (seba). However, it was derived as a specialized term to be applied only to the unit of time consisting of seven days, that is, the “week”. So why would the word "sebua" mean (7 years) in Daniel 9 and three verses further down "sebua" mean (seven days) in Daniel 10:2-3?
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---------------------------- Ron: Monday, December 30, 2002 - 10:56 pm: ----------------------------
So if it was obvious to you Ulrike that the 70 years was literal then the following quotation from SDA's Believe page 41 is untrue:
So if Daniel ( begins with a literal time prophecy why would it then switch to symbolic. This is why many commentators and scholars hold to the idea that sevens is meant as the Expositor's Bible Commentary says: The Expositors's Bible Commontary footnote states:
24 Note that Daniel elsewhere (10:2) specified when he meant weekdays: sheloshah shabhu`im yamim (selosah sabucim yamim, "three weeks").
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---------------------------------- Ulrike: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 12:58 am: ---------------------------------- So you are saying the seventy weeks are literal weeks ?? Or our you now agreeing the seventy weeks employ the day/year principle? Daniel was reading Jeremiah's warnings to the people living in Jerusalem, which, in Jeremiah's own time, fell to the Babylonians. They were not written in symbolic language. Jeremiah was speaking of the immediate threat and consequences in literal years? But Daniel's prophecies are in symbolic language, his time periods reach far into the future, so why do you say they must therefore not be symbolic??????
I agree that For it doesn't mean literal 70 weeks. The word (sabua) occurs 13 times in the OT outside of Dan 9. Virtually all versions fo the Bible are in agreement in translating these instances as “weeks.” If it is “weeks” everywhere else in the OT, then, on the basis of comparative linguistic evidence, it should be rendered “weeks” in Dan. 9. And a week HAS SEVEN DAYS.
You cannot really answer the argument: It is quite arbitrary, therefore, to translate (sabua) as “seven” or “sevens” in Dan 9:24-27 and to translate it as “weeks” three verses later in Dan 10:2,3, as the New International Version renders it in the body of its text. Usages elsewhere in Daniel, elsewhere in the OT, in extra-biblical Hebrew, and in cognate Semitic languages all indicate that this word should be translated as “weeks”. (A seven day period) No support can be obtained from any of these sources for translating this word any other way than as “weeks”.}
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-------------------------------------- Ulrike: December 31, Tuesday 2:35 p.m. --------------------------------------- Dan. 9:24-27 is clearly using the day-year principle.
Prophecies that come with SYMBOLIC imagery use symbolic prophetic time. (day for a year) Prophecies that deal primarily on a literal level, usually use literal time units--though these at times create the "bridge" between the symbolic and the literal understanding. As such Daniel 9:24-27 is the key making the bridge from the literal to the symbolic in actually quite a variety of "links" to Biblical backgrounds, alerting us that Daniel's visions use the symbolic scheme of time.
Daniel's prophecies are Apocalyptic prophecies-- Here's what William Shea writes: POSTED SHEA’S #3
See: William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #3
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----------------------------------- Ron: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 10:29 am: -----------------------------------
So the whole Dan. 9 Seventy weeks is indicative of weeks of years
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----------------------------------------------- Ulrike Unruh December 31,2002 Tuesday 11:20 a.m. ----------------------------------------------- I would urge you to read Shea's #19 point-- again. See: William Shea's Points on Day/Year Principle #19-20
The Bible does NOT mix the two words
The Hebrew word for “week,” (shabua) was derived from the word for “seven” (sheba)(#7650,7651) which is the cardinal number seven,.. seven times. Why do people say they can "change" Biblical words to suit their meanings? If "sabua" means "a week" of seven days everywhere else, how is it that people think they can change it's meaning in the six occurances in Dan. 9:24-27, yet then revert back to an ordinary seven day week meaning everywhere else? (Not even Strong's concordance has that authority-- just because it's convienent in the six occurances of Dan: 9:24-27) Yes, using the DAY/YEAR principle -- days, become years. And that principle is found many times in the Old Testament. Not just in turning a week into seven years, but "a day for a year" in other instances.
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------------------------------------------------------ William Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 06:12 pm: ------------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------- Ron Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 11:29 pm: ---------------------------------- Jeremiah's prophecies were not--
No, do you know what Apocalyptic means?
1 : of, relating to, or resembling an apocalypse (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
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------------------------------------- Ulrike Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 10:39 pm: -------------------------------------
Yes, I’ll agree that all the prophets contain Apocalyptic messages.
However, there is a difference between Classical prophecy and apocalyptic prophecy.
Classical prophecy speaks in more concrete terms. The times, events, places, and peoples affected by the prophecy are usually either contemporaneous or immediately successive to the time of the prophet. The events forecast have ample time to occur in the times prophesied.
Apocalyptic prophecy uses more abstract symbols. Horns, scrolls, animals-- with very obvious symbolic meanings. They point to and cover time which generally ends at a point in time far removed from the prophets day. The literal time periods given (70 weeks, 1260 days, etc.) cannot possible contain the full range of activities prophesied to occur within their literal time frame. Thus they too are symbolic. Apocalyptic prophecies speak directly to great time spans that reach far into the future. Neither the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, nor the 3 ½ years of Daniel 7 make much sense when interpreted as literal time. Thus Jeremiah’s prophecy of Israel’s captivity lasting 70 literal years was a “classical prophecy. Daniel’s prophecies are time spans that begin in his day and reach down to the end of time--
----------------------------------------- No, do you know what Apocalyptic means? (He then gives a listing of Websters meanings for apocalyptic.)
Now that’s like saying the word “mean” in the sentence above doesn’t mean “to signify understanding of” because Websters also lists its meaning as:
Any single word can have many meanings--- So what are
Apocalyptic prophecies? They are prophecies forecasting the ultimate destiny of the world. (Websters Dictionary) Daniel’s prophecies span earth’s history covering the CHRIST’S WORK OF SALVATION
Daniel 9 --- HE COMES TO EARTH to die for our transgressions
When that is finished the opposing forces are destroyed and the saints inherit the kingdom. The kingdom of Christ which will NEVER be destroyed. All Daniel’s prophecies span great sweeps of history and point to the final consummation.
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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron: Wednesday, January 1, 2003 - 12:11 pm: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Summary:
We have seen that this usage of 'weeks' or 'sevens' as meaning 'weeks of years' or 'sevens of years' is well-attested in the Jewish literature. It is suggested by the Tanakh/OT context, by analogous uses of the symbolic connection, and is witnessed to by usage in 'unofficial' Judaism (the Jewish Pseudepigrapha), 'sectarian' Judaism (Qumran), and 'official' Judaism (the Rabbinics). [Later commentators used this same approach, as the original question noted in reference to Rashi.]
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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Friday, January 3, 2003 - 10:54 pm: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
A rather paranoid belief when you consider that it was understood as weeks of years by the Early Church Fathers who as it happens could be viewed as historicist in that they also viewed the seventy weeks as fulfilled through Jesus the Messiah. What it comes down to is the year/day interpretation has no basis in any Biblical verses. And when they use Dan 9 as a "proof" they are left with nothing. And since the prophecy works without using year/day it is highly doubtful that it is the key to other prophecies and evidence that they should be interpreted using the year/day principle. Some other Early Church Fathers citations to show that they did not use year/day on the seventy weeks. They wrote well before Mede began to popularize the year/day theory. ORIGEN The place also of His birth has been foretold in (the prophecies of) Micah: “For thou, Bethlehem,” he says, “land of Judah, art by no means the least among the rulers of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a Ruler, who shall rule My people Israel.” And according to Daniel, seventy weeks were fulfilled until (the coming of) Christ the Ruler.
THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS VOLUME 5 page 374 II
THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS VOLUME 6 Page 289 And the beginning of the numbers, that is, of the seventy weeks which make up 490 years, the angel instructs us to take from the going forth of the commandment to answer and to build Jerusalem. And this happened in the twentieth year of the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia.
THE NICENE AND
POST-NICENE FATHERS
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-----------------------------------------
ORIGEN:
HIPPOLYTUS: So Hippolytus transposes the 70 weeks into 490 years.
Next quote: They were applying the day/year principle even though as yet they had not applied it to other prophecies, they understood the principle in Daniel 9.
What people who are speaking against the day/year principle won’t acknowledge is that there is no such thing as a literal week of years.
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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Friday, January 3, 2003 - 10:59 pm: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulrike Wrote: The word (sabua) means weeks-- that is seven days. The Hebrew word for “week,” (sabua) was derived from the word for “seven” (seba). However, it was drived as a specialized term to be applied only to the unit of time consisting of seven days, that is, the “week” < No the term is for seven.
Strong's Number: 7620 (wb#
1. seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
Translated Words
NAS (24) - Weeks, 5; seven, 1; week, 4; weeks, 14; Ulrike, you might like the straight foward whay Dr. J. Vernon McGee explains the Seventy Weeks from his commentary on Daniel: Daniel 9:24 reads: Seventy weeks have been determined for your people and your holy city [i.e., for the nation Israel and for Jerusalem]." The word for "week" is sabu, which is derived from seba, the word for "seven." Its normal plural is feminine in form: sbuot. Only in this chapter of Daniel does it appear in the masculine plural sabuim. (The only other occurrence is in the combination sbue sbuot ["heptads of weeks"] in Ezek. 21:28 [21:23 English text]). Therefore, it is strongly suggestive of the idea "heptad" (a series or combination of seven), rather than a "week" in the sense of a series of seven days. There is no doubt that in this case we are presented with seventy sevens of years rather than of days. This leads to a total of 490 years. ( Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties page 298
As Shea wrote: No interpreters are complaining about the word weeks, it is the implication that it is week of days that is at question. Many Bibles while using weeks in the text will then footnote the meaning is week of years.
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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorensen Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 8:15 am: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, Ron, they all seem to agree that it is 490 years and that clearly supports the year/day principle. So......what's your point??? Maybe I missed something here. Sorensen | ||||||||||||
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 11:51 am: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
The best you can say is it does not hurt the year-day principle but then again it does not help it either since the 490 years can be arrived at without the year-day principle as the ECF quotes show. Unfortunately for the year-day proponets this chapter is their only evidence that the year day principle even works. And as I pointed out earlier, it did not even work in the first mention of the seventy years Daniel quotes from Jeremiah. So they are already inconsistent in their application of its use.
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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulrike Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 10:54 pm: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
He referred us to the link "Did the Jews Understand the 70 weeks to refer to years?" I found the article to simply confirm the fact that yes the Jews understood the “day” for a “year” principle. It was built right into their ceremonies. I also read in the article that: Of course the author then goes to great lengths to (in my opinion) contradict himself saying yes, time has symbolic meaning, but no it is not symbolic meaning.
Ron wrote:
However Ron fails to see that Jeremiah spoke IN YEARS. Why does the passage switch from YEARS when refering to Jeremiah, to weeks, when refering to the apocaliptic prophecies? There has to be SOME PRINCIPLE in place which leads people to understand that the weeks are the symbolic weeks of years, not the literal weeks of days.
A literal week is made up of SEVEN DAYS. Any concept of a week of years is symbolic, where the seven days now mean seven years. That is the DAY-YEAR principle I really have a hard time grasping the argument that shows how the symbolic day for a year principle is found in so many places and that this somehow refutes the day for a year principle. No, no-- it confirms and substantiates it.
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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulrike Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 11:44 pm: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it is a “unit of measure” but not like “dozen” it is a unit OF TIME. It means “week”.
Do you have any instance where "shabua" is used as having a "shabua" of bread, or a "shabua" of children? etc.
A literal "week" has seven days. (A seven)
Think of it this way--
Thus too, a WEEK, means seven days, | ||||||||||||
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Sunday, January 5, 2003 - 11:12 am: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulrike Sunday, January , 2003 - 11:44 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If this is an analogy it would follow under (meaning #3 in Websters) Thus seven days for seven years, and again we have the standard "tool" of the day/year principle. The "people are like grass" analogy is in a different class--
Speaking of analogies-- The linguistic usage of "days" paired with "years" in prose and poetic passages of the OT forms a background for the development of the day-year principle.
Are the days as the days of man,
The wicked man writhes in pain all his days
I said, "let days speak,
If they harken and serve him,
Remember the days of old,
I consider the days of old, "The close and particular relationship between "days" and "years" that is found both in the prose and poetry of the OT provides a background for the more specific application of this type of thought in apocalyptic time prophecies.
The parallelism presented does not employ "days" to refer to short periods of time and "years" to long periods. The terms refer to the same periods but are calibrated in shorter and longer units. This is the same manner of thinking that is encountered in time prophecies, but there the equivalence has been made more numerically specific."
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