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The following is a dialogue with a certain "Tom" who is trying to claim that the SDA Pioneers did not see any investigative judgment in the 1st angel's message. This supposed "fact" is to show SDA's that the investigative judgment is simply a distortion of what even the pioneers believed and is therefore not a "foundational doctrine" of the church and should be gotten rid off.
What you will find most interesting in this dialogue is the methods of "name calling" and the repeated "bleeping" or erasing of all the evidence I brought to the forum that "Tom's" presentation of history was not correct. These "bleeped" responses can be read by clicking on the links. The responses were rewritten (since I originally wrote them on the forum and they disappeared) and placed on pages on this website.
"Secondly, you are confused about how the historic Adventist Apocalyptic really works. The
three angel's message are very separate and distinct indeed. They are NOT "only one
message" as you claim, but rather they each have their own different start and stop
dates, as well as certain other distinctive characteristics and doctrines. Moreover, these
historic messages exist only in chronological order-- never in parallel-- as you claim. Never.
Furthermore, you said that under the 1st angels message there was a call to "honor Him by
worshiping on the day of His memorial of Creation, deliverance, and sanctification." This is
utter confusion. No Adventist or Millerite ever promoted the Sabbath under either the 1st
or 2nd angels messages. In fact, both James White and Ellen Harmon were Sunday keepers
during these first two messages. So I am really surprised that anyone would post such an
incorrect position about such a plain historical fact...
People, it's a little late to debate most of this because it is-- "history." In fact, there is no
debate about what the pioneers really taught. They have left us with vaults full of material
that can be plainly read and objectively studied. All the
pioneers taught that the three Angels are distinct and separate. They NEVER flew
together, and they never will.
We can't go back and change that fact, or any others, even if we wanted to. I understand
that many today DO want to go back and make such adjustments--especially about the IJ,
but this can never be. We are dealing with history and plain facts about what the pioneers
taught, NOT our ideas of what they should have said or what we would have liked to have
heard them say. We have to be honest with the facts! Listen to James White, the genius
behind the rise and progress of the SDA Movement:
"The second angel's message [verse 8th] has also been fulfilled . . . . . . . It is a
well-known fact that the burden of the first message was given from 1840 to the first part
of 1844. It is also a fact that the announcement, 'Babylon is fallen,'
was made in 1844, and that the burden of that message, which called many thousands
from the different churches, closed in the Autumn of 1844." Signs of the Times, p. 113,
James White, 1853.
I agree with James White and the pioneers! They clearly understood that these earlier two
messages have been "fulfilled" in the context of the Millerite movement back in 1844. My
position follows the pioneers. In fact, the SDA church is known as the "3rd angels
message"--NOT the "three angels messages" as some incorrectly think.
In fact,I should also quote James White again to show that only ONE message can be
operating at a time. This is a critical Adventist eschatological formula that refutes this
rather common myth that all the three angels still fly together; Listen to James White
again;
"This second angel did not go on his mission and deliver his message in company with the
first angel: but he 'followed' after the first had delivered the burden of his message...Then
the time for the third came." The Present Truth, April,
1850, Vo;1., No 9 (Oswego, New York; James White publisher). pp. 66, 68.
Unlike: It is your position that is at odds with the pioneers--not mine.
To show you that these messages are mutually exclusive just consider this: If we were to
try and sound the 2nd angels message today--we would have to say that Jesus will come
on October 22, 1844 as this was one of the key components under that historic message.
Moreover, we would also have to base that specific time prediction of the eschaton on
Dan 8:14. This then means that the "cleansing of the sanctuary" would have to represent
the earth being burned up with fire because of the 2nd coming etc. This is all impossible
and outdated you say! Of course it is. That's why we cannot ever repeat that 2nd
message in its' historic form. The same goes for the first message that said the second
coming will take place in the spring of 1844. (That 1st message lost credibility before the
2nd message and was "grounded" because of it's flaws relating too
Dan 8:14.) All this is just plain documented Adventist history. It is a fact that the pioneers
considered each message separate and distinct; And the first two messages expired before
the discovery of the Third message.
It is important to understand these things honestly and within an accurate historical and
theological context so that we can better understand how to proceed within the Adventist
Apocalyptic today. This willingness to believe myths with a cult like fervor has got to stop.
Now my position that the "3rd message" is also finished is up for debate (unlike the first
two). This was never a teaching of the pioneers during their lifetimes. This is new. So we
can all have some fun discussing this late 20th century position. But I can't take any
credit for it, because it was the brilliant RDB who was the first to articulate this. But even
Standish, his arch enemy, agreed a few years later. When you work it out, you will find
that they are both correct. This historic 19th century message (of the 3rd Angel) is no
longer understood today, much less preached from the SDA pulpit. That's one way you
know it's over. It really has been dead for many years thanks to Dr. Ford. For better or
worse, the gospel ended the 19th century paradigm of the historic 3rd Angel's message. I
say for better, some say for worse. Time will tell.
According to the historic pattern established by the Adventist Apocalyptic, ONLY when
one message is finished, can another one takes it's place. If the 3rd is over then the next
one would be the 4th angels message of Rev. 18. The ONLY message that actually
witnesses the last day events according to the pioneers.
One good and very early description relating to this 4th Angels message is by EGW in EW
p.277. In vision she saw the 4th Angel of Rev 18 "unite his voice with the third
Angel....The work of this angel comes in at the right time" to "join the 3rd". And note:
"This message (4th) seemed to be an addition to the third message, joining it as the
midnight cry joined the 2nd angels message in 1844."
In conclusion; The first two Messages have long been over. The Third recently expired.
The Fourth is yet to be developed. The Advent Movement is stalled between the old and
the new. Time for Gospel Reform. Miller was right in his calculating the time periods, but he was WRONG in thinking Christ was coming to earth in 1844, (that is obvious) but he was NOT WRONG IN PROCLAIMING the message that the time was at hand, "the hour of judgment is come." Their whole understanding of what each message meant came about AFTER the disappointment, not before.
To fully understand what they believed one has to follow the progression on how truth was revealed, not just how it was first perceived. They searched the scriptures diligently and came up with a well studied, scriptural foundation for truth. The fact that EGW couldn't understand their biblical research at the time, and the brethren were well aware of this, but when given a vision, she would give clear confirmation and understanding to the texts under consideration, only confirmed to them that God was guiding their studies.
To now turn around and say Ellen White's writings are not to be looked at to find out what they believed, and to hold up some short paragraphs taken from men who were in the process of trying to figure it all out, and declare that as the "foundational" truths of Adventism, is not presenting history honestly.
Also, you speak of a fourth angel. You wipe the three angels' messages from the board, then you jump from Revelation 14 to Revelation 18 and say this is the fourth angel that is to fly independently of the former three angels. Well let's stay in Revelation 14 and we will see that when the fourth angel in that chapter flies, PROBATION closes. It will be too late.
Rev. 14:15
That is the fourth angel in Revelation 14 and the 5th angel follows in verse 17.
Once the 4th and 5th angels come, it will be too late! It is the three angels' messages that are to prepare the people! They are the important messages for NOW! The angel of Revelation 18 is but a swelling into a loud warning these same three angels' messages, with special emphasis on the "Come Out" of the second angel. The angel of Rev. 18 does not bring a totally new message, but is only the full, and powerful, final proclamation of the three angels' messages combined into one message.
These are historical facts within the Adventist Apocalyptic that cannot be denied by
rational and educated people. I am sorry that such history shocks and frightens you. But
you are the one who claims to follow the "traditional" theology of the pioneers. But then
that is obviously just empty, cultic talk on your part isn't it? You and most of the other
zealots are ignorant about what the pioneers really taught--and that includes much about
Ellen White.
The issue here is not giving up "all three messages", but understanding those messages
better so that the Advent Movement can go forward. I am trying to show you what the
historic eschatology actually entailed regarding these messages. You prefer fiction and
myths instead. For some reason you don't like the correct historical facts and think it is
your duty and spiritual gift to fight against the Pioneers. So I am confused. You say you
want the "traditional" SDA message, but then you reject and deny the most plain and
fundamental teaching of that very message? Hello? What is this all about? This refusal to
get real and play fair seems to be the trademark of those traditional Adventists who
cannot bear to admit error. Is this denial or what?
No offense, Unlike, but you need to study Adventist history much more before you go
around and make all these pontifications as the great defender of historic Adventism; You
don't understand historic Adventism near as much as
you think you do.
Furthermore, where did you get the idea that the 4th angels message comes "after
probation" closes. No one ever said that! I never said that and I don't know anyone who
ever said such a thing. In fact I quoted the opposite from Ellen White. So I don't know
where that came from? You are very confused. The pioneers looked to the Angel in Rev 18
as the fourth and final message that was to follow the first three in Rev. 14. According to
the Pioneers--especially Ellen White, the end of the world would take place under the 4th
angels message.
So let's try this again: (A.) The Three Angels Messages are sequential and NOT PARALLEL.
(B.) the first two messages have long expired. (C.) The 3rd Angels Message is in a grave
crisis. (D.) Some think the 3rd has also expired as well. (E.) The 4th is yet to be
developed. A, B, C and E are all historical facts within the Adventist Apocalyptic that
cannot be honestly disputed. However, "D" is up for debate.
Let's just see what some pioneers said about the three angel's message.
I think it is you who is being very selective of history to get rid of the spiritual message contained in the three angels' messages and relegate them to simple historical events that are now past and finished.
I have two neat books by J.N.Andrews, and I see him agreeing with my understanding.
To see bleeped message click here
Tom writes, Saturday, March 18, 2000 - 10:11 pm:
Unlike: You are not playing fair again are you? You said that Andrews little book about the
"Three Messages of Rev. 14" , which I have in my library, "is a neat book — and it
agrees with my understanding!" Sorry Unlike, you are just reading into it what you want to
believe. Andrews is not supporting your position whatsoever. You are twisting his words to
make them say what you want to hear. This is the methodology you are forced to use in
order to defend your fictional perception of historic Adventism. Let's see if we can't find a
clear quote in that book that leaves no doubt as to what Andrews is really saying on the
point under discussion;
See the "Conclusion" on page 139. Listen carefully to Andrews:
"We have now briefly and imperfectly surveyed this most important subject. Sufficient
evidence has been adduced, we think, to satisfy the honest inquirer that we occupy one
of the most solemn and interesting periods in the history of the church. THE FIRST AND
SECOND PROCLAMATIONS OF REV.14 ARE IN THE PAST, AND THE WARNING VOICE OF THE
THIRD ANGEL IS NOW ADDRESSED TO US;"
Hello! Don't you get it? What more do you want? "The first and second proclamations" are
"IN THE PAST". This is what I have said over and over again. Now you have seen James
White, George Butler and now J.N. Andrews clearly saying that the first two messages are
in the "PAST" and only the 3rd is operational. Keep researching and perhaps it will finally
dawn on you that you have grossly misunderstood what the pioneers were saying about
the Three Angels Messages.
I know this must come as shock to you as you fancy yourself some sort of "historic
Adventist expert", but I think it is time to deal with reality about this and other myths,
don't you? You don't understand historic Adventism like you think you do. You may have
the books, but you still don't understand what is written in them. You may think you do,
but you are just embarrassing yourself.
Unlike; it appears that you are not an "honest inquirer" in this matter. You are playing
games with Andrews like you play games with James White, or Ellen White or the
Scriptures. You zealots are experts at twisting plain speech in a dishonest effort to make
everything conform to your myths and fantasies. In this way you hope to avoid having to
admit the truth that Adventism needs major Gospel reform. But your efforts of deception
only underscore the need for honesty and reform.
The Three Angels Messages are chronological and sequential, never parallel. The first two
messages are "Past" and the 3rd was operational only by itself. Only ONE message may fly
at any given time. Period! This is a fundamental principle of historic Adventism that you,
and others, fail to understand and refuse to admit. Why is that?
Tom
For one thing you have to call people names which is very childish and unmannerly, and shows you are motivated by hatred against Adventist doctrine and not by love for truth. And then you must "BLEEP" all my quotes so people can't even see the "rest of the story."
Yes, the first and second angel's messages were sounded in the past. The first was initially sounded prior to 1844 when William Miller and many others proclaimed the time of the end was at the door and Christ would come, the second began to sound when the the conventional churches refused to listen and people were called to come out of them. I have never questioned the historical part of this. What I question is your insistance that we accept the mistaken interpretation which first accompanied these messages, an interpretation, which, by the way does not even agree with the context of the messages, for how could the "hour of judgment" mean the hour of earth's destruction, when two more messages were to follow. Yes, it did bring back the proper understanding of the second coming, which is a very important part of the message, but the judgment announced in the first angel's message CANNOT mean the second coming, the pioneers "post-disappointment" studies make that very plain. Yet you insists the pioneer's "prior to the disappointment" interpretation was correct and reject the judgment message that 1st angel's was really sent to give. That message you have rejected.
You only read the concluding remarks -- read the whole book and you will see you have
strayed miles away from everything it says! And you purpurate yourself to be showing
Adventist historical beliefs!
And now the 3rd angels message is the warning message to be sounded.
You bet it is -- and by throwing out the first two messages which HAVE BEEN SOUNDED LOUD
AND CLEAR IN THE PAST you are being led to totally throw out the third message as well
and then you say you look forward to the fourth and fifth angels -- the reaping angels
that will reap the whole earth and those who have rejected the messages will be like
grapes in the winepress-- till blood runs as high as a horses bridle!
Also you completely ignore large sections of Andrew's book that clearly say the messages are
not "finished" and that their culmination is yet future.
Page 71 To see bleeped response click here
Unlike: You are a bad trip! A few points.
# 2. That main point under discussion between us is how the Three Messages move
through prophetic history. Or to say it a different way; how does the Adventist Church
move forward through history. If we can't get by this point, then there is no reason to
continue any discussion, for it would be like talking to someone who is holding their hands
to their ears, so as not to hear while they are also shutting their eyes tight to keep from
seeing.
Moreover, your attempt to confuse the issue by bringing in the IJ is not playing fair. That
is another separate point. Let's conclude the first issue and THEN we can try to locate the
IJ within the Three Angels Messages. Isn't that a fair proposal? However, because I get
the feeling that you will never, ever , surrender on any point regardless of the
overwhelming evidence against your position I will make a comment about the IJ for you to
ponder as it relates to its' LOCATION within the Three Angels Messages.
# 3. The IJ can NEVER be located within either the 1st or 2nd Angels messages! This is a
myth and a theological error of the Pioneers. It can never be done. I know this will come
as a shock to you, but then you are still in shock, no doubt, about what you have recently
discovered concerning the basic eschatological mechanics of the Three Angels Messages.
Isn't learning fun?
So in conclusion Unlike: Your mission to preserve, defend and protect historic Adventism so
that it can come to life and save the world, is in ruins. If you don't even understand what
the pioneers were originally saying, I don't see how you can speak for them and pretend
that you are their champion. You are not!
Thanks Tom, for your kind, accepting words, and your great tolerance for Adventist
doctrine. (that was tongue in check by the way) For obviously you are out to change the
Seventh-day Adventist foundational beliefs with your own biased rendition of historical
events.
What ever made you accuse me of being uneducated and stuck in a corner? Is that some tactic to intimidate and gain for yourself more recognition. And why must all my "historical evidence" and comments be bleeped? Is it so your "position" remains "unchallenged"? And the people see only my "opinions" without substantial quotes, so you can appear as the "educated scholar" and quote all you want.
You think I am not aware that the Adventist understanding of the three angels was
progressive? Do you think I do not know the situation in the 1840's, and their firm belief that Christ would come in 1843-44 and that they believed this to be
the first angel judgment call. But Christ did NOT come in 1844. Obviously the judgment hour was NOT THE SECOND COMING to cleanse the earth. Indeed Christ could not have come, for more messages were to be proclaimed AFTER. The fuller understanding of "the hour of judgment is come" opened to them
gradually. In the 1840's the truths of prophecy exploded upon them, they took them up
and were convicted, but they didn't understand all the details immediately. Now you want us to throw out the real message and go back to the mistaken part of the message? Sorry but I don't accept that. .
Now of course it is people like you who will throw out the foundational platform the
pioneers built upon, then, after getting rid of the foundation, you pick on a few timbers
that appear shaky, strike at them and then watch with great pleasure as people who don't
understand the foundation go into shock.
How many even on this forum think 1844 had any significance? That is what the post-disappointment pioneers were talking about when they said the first angel's message was fulfilled. The hour of HIS judgment had come, the investigative judgment began in 1844, the 2300 days/years ended in 1844. The full truth on the ten commandments came out at that time. But the truth of what happened is still to be told to the end of time! The third angel is a warning message directed to all who reject the first and second angel's messages thereby will fall into the beasts deceptions. For as Bates said--"to deny the reality of the proclamation past is to be just a step away from Babylon--all it will take is the push of a little force which Rev. 13 tells us wil be supplied and they will be in Babylon.
Your reasoning won't work with people who understand the foundation -- that's why I'm a bad trip for
you --
Why should I admit what you say I must admit just because you stand there elevating
your supposed greater knowledge and calling me dumb and uneducated!
You can't answer my direct quotes from the pioneers themselves, the forum has to "bleep them" to get rid of them, and then you can simply say my
understanding of history is all wrong.
Unlike, You are not playing fair again! I do NOT deny the validity, value or uniquenes of any of the Three Angel's Messages or the historic Advent Movement as you are now saying. Not only is that NOT true, it also has nothing to do with the topic under discussion. We are trying to understand the mechanical details of these three historical movements. You are saying these messages are parallel and I keep saying they are ONLY chronological and sequential.
My position is NOT AN ATTACK on any of these messages as you keep saying. It is just a correction of your limited understanding of Adventist history. There is a dramatic difference.
You also say that the 1st Angel's message is about the IJ. Wrong again! But unless we can agree on some very simple and basic principles relating to how the Three Angels move within the Adventist Apocalyptic there is little use in dealing with the really difficult issues.
You ask; "How can a person throw out the pioneers understanding by using a few paragraphs from their writings to do so? The answer is" You CANNOT! What I have done with a few pointed quotes from the Pioneers is show that YOUR UNDERSTANDING SHOULD BE THROWN OUT, not the pioneers. This is the point that you can't seem able to understand or admit.
Unlike, I know you are still in "shock" over all this, but try as you might, you will never be able to re-write history and make the Pioneers dance to the 20th century myths that the Denomination has foisted on everyone. In an attempt to prop up the fading Third Angel's message, the leaders resorted to promoting myths that the Pioneers would have loudly rejected. You have been trying to defend one of those myths-- unsuccessfully I might add! The IJ was NEVER a part of the first two messages and was unknown to the pioneers during that time period. The IJ CANNOT be located in the 1st Message as many believe.
THEY ERASED EVERY SINGLE QUOTE I gave to show that I was not making things up. AMAZING INDEED--ARE YOU GUYS ALL THAT THREATENED BY THIS "uneducated, ignorant" woman, that you must erase all the evidence that I present from the pioneers writings.
Well lets try again:
Read Andrews preface: To see bleeped response click here
They did not find the Sabbath in the 1st or 2nd message as you claim. They found it in the 3rd! So please stop trying to confuse history with your myths and legends. If you want to play church historian and defend the faith, I suggest you find some good history books and catch up on some of these very basic facts. Your web site is full of historical and theological error.
Unlike, your mythical version of historic Adventism is useless. You have been sold a bill of goods my dear. A phony Adventism that represents what some of the leaders wanted us all to believe. Wake up woman. Adventism is not working. The historic 3rd angel expired 20 years ago. Stop defending the indefensible and try to better understand the Adventist Apocalytic.
That one, Tom, is one of the most deceptive tactics! Using a quote from EGW, putting your own interpretation on it, and then using it to annull what she really said about the true meaning of the "hour of His judgment is come" text and then accusing the one who agrees with her position on the subject as being the one against EGW. That is a classic!
Basically, Tom, you want to take us out of Seventh-day Adventism, into "pre-disappointment" understanding of those messages. Those "pre-disappointment" pioneers had the prophetic time period right, but there interpretation of what happened at the end of those 2300 years WAS WRONG! Christ did not come. The sanctuary to be cleansed at that time was not the earth. The "post-disappointment" pioneers searched the scriptures and found that the 1st angel's "hour of judgment is come," could NOT have been the second coming, for two more messages were to be sounded thereafter. The sanctuary, to be cleansed, the 1st angel's judgment call, and Daniel 7's court scence all related to the pre-second coming judgment. Let's see if the Pioneers think the 2nd angel's message is past and finished --
Yes, they did apply it to the calling out from other churches of the people who believed
Miller's message -- that is when the 2nd angel started to sound --and there was definitely
a "coming out".
However, they also hold to a more complete fulfilment in the future.
Babylon is the central focus of the 2nd angel's message. Who is Babylon and when are
people called to leave Babylon?
Let's ask our Pioneer friend J.N. Andrews a few more questions and we will see that the angel of Revelation 18 is but the three angels' message of Rev. 14 swelling into a powerful and loud cry: To see bleeped response click here
By Ulrike on Monday, March 20, 2000 - 10:07 am:
I don't have a specific link (THE BLEEPED RESPONSES WERE RETYPED AND LATER PLACED ON THIS WEBSITE)
I typed those quotes all from my books just to have you guys bleep it with a touch of your
delete button.
Thanks so much for your wonderful tolerance.
Your opinions are all that ever matters isn't it--
I also noticed you did not delete any other posts, many a lot longer and even more full of quotes than mine.
WHY ARE YOU BEING SO SELECTIVE? WHY WILL YOU NOT ALLOW TRUTH ON YOUR FORUM! YOU HAVE BLEEPED EVERY BIT OF QUOTED EVIDENCE --IT'S TOTALLY AMAZING!
To see first bleeped response click here
Unlike; (his version of my name)
"First, we really have to be careful about using EGW comments to understand
historic Advent theology and history. Froom was correct (see Movement of Destiny) in his
position that EGW was not responsible for any SDA doctrines whatsoever--much less any
of the three Angels messages. In addition she certainly was not a theologian who worked
out the details of Adventist eschatology like her husband James or Joseph Bates or
Andrews or Smith etc. In fact she claimed not to even have understood such things when
the foundations of the 3rd message were developed. Not surprisingly, many of her writings
are not made with theological precision, nor were they meant to be. The pioneers
understood this much better then we do today. (So trying to figure out the historic
Adventist Apocalyptic by putting together EGW statements will be confusing at best and
misleading at worst).
It seems clear to me that your mission is to destroy the three angels' messages and undermine Ellen White. You are not here to proclaim the three angels' messages in their real meaning at all. No, the pioneers did not at first see the full truth in these messages, at first they thought Christ was coming to this earth in 1844, they thought the sanctuary to be cleansed was this earth, but after serious Bible study they did understand that the first angel's message was NOT ABOUT Christ coming to this earth, but about Christ entering into the judgment phase of the heavenly ministry.
"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, thrust in your sickle, and reap for the time is come for you to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle, and another angel (a 6th) came from the altar. and they thrust in the sickle and gathered the vine of the earth and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Now you don't have to agree with the Pioneers. You can say they were wrong, and that is
your choice. But you CANNOT say that they taught that the three A's are "parallel" as you
keep trying to do. That is NOT correct whatsoever! If George Butler was "online" today he
would say to you what he said in his 1885 Battle Creek Lectures on the The three angels
messages. He would claim that the first two messages have both EXPIRED in 1844 and
that "this position has stood the test of rigid examination from that day to this and cannot
be shaken." All the pioneers strongly and forcefully taught that the Three Angels are ONLY
sequential and chronological--NEVER, EVER, parallel! That eschatological formula has never
been changed to this day, nor can it be. Only ONE message can be active at any given
time. The first two expired long ago and the third Message represents Sabbath Reform and
the SDA denomination that also includes the major concepts of the former messages.
Here's J.N.Andrews 1877 "Three Messages of Revelation 14" pp.34,35,71,72
You are not being fair! Not to yourself nor to the readers.
You have totally rejected the sanctuary message as outlined in Andrews book.
# 1. I have no "hatred" towards "all things Adventist" as you absurdly charge. Nor have I
ever said that I have "rejected" any of the historic Advent messages as you wildly charge.
But I will be blunt and tell you that I do not like to get into discussions about anything
with dishonest, uneducated and stubborn minded people who refuse to admit when they
are wrong. It is a "cultic mind set" that refuses to admit that there is error within the
Adventist Apocalyptic. However, in this little discussion, the error in NOT with the
pioneers, but with YOU. They were united on this position under discussion, it is YOU who
doesn't understand what they are saying. You have painted yourself into a corner that
actually places your position squarely against the historic fundamentals of how the Three
Angels Messages function. I know you didn't mean to get yourself into this uncomfortable
mess, but you are stuck! The only way out is to admit that you were wrong and to admit
that the pioneers did NOT promote or teach that the Three Angels Messages are parallel
as you keep insisting. ONLY ONE ANGEL MAY FLY AT ANY GIVEN TIME WITHIN THE
ADVENTIST APOCALYPTIC!
You think I don't know your position-- that you believe the investigative judgment has to go, "so the Advent movement can come to life and save the world".
The ones playing unfair are the forum censors who erased all my evidence from the pioneers words themselves. Sure I look like I'm unsuccessful if all my evidence is consistantly removed and only my statements are left.
The IJ is finished. The IJ was never in the 1st message and it never can be. Remember it was Ellen White who quoted the angel in her vision saying that none of these historic messages could ever be changed in the slightest. My position, (which is the historic position of the pioneers) conforms to Ellen White. Your position dramatically revises the 1st message and thereby places you against EGW. Admit this fact. You will never find the IJ in the first 2 messages. (It is still worth $10,000 if you can do it!)
You must always erase the evidence that your opinions are not infallible
To see second bleeped response click here
To see third bleeped response click here
To see fourth bleeped response click here
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